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Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

theguardian.com

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Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#221

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kelthuzad wrote: post #211
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Winning is based on war aims. Israel's were the return of captives and removal of Hamas. It is further along in those aims than it was in the aftermath of the October 7 attacks; that's fairly defined as winning. (Taken to the extreme, Nazi Germany was winning WWII in 1940.) > the world seeing israel as an illegitimate pariah state Your other claims are true. This one is not.

>> the world seeing israel as an illegitimate pariah state >Your other claims are true. This one is not. I should have phrased that more precisely but I was just judging by what Israel's ministry of hasbara itself seems to be most concerned with and fears the most is people questioning israel's legitimacy. Combined with the sentiment that can be seen across social media where even regular folks have started seeing is…

> the sentiment that can be seen across social media where even regular folks have started labelling israel as a racist settler colonial project that has no legitimacy

A majority of Americans support Israel's war [1]. An overwhelming majority believe Israel has a right to exist [2]. (The exception being 18 to 24-year olds, among whom 31% believe Israel does not.)

Israel has faced practically zero actual diplomatic consequences as a result of its war, with even those voting against it at the UN continuing to e.g. trade with and talk to it [3].

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-i...

[2] https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#222

Post by bentley »

burkaman wrote: post #202
bentley wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it difficult to tell how their reports translate to objective numbers. For example, the United States’ ranking fell from 45 to 55 in the last year. Here are the reports for those years: https://web.archive.org/web/20230817030548/https://rsf.org/e... https://web.archive.org/web/20240505202537/https://rsf.org/e... As far as I can tell, the only negative differences between these two reports are that a reporter w…

It's a ranking, so presumably part of the US dropping is due to other countries improving. There is another major negative change noted though - more newspaper closures and huge layoffs at news organizations. It also sounds like the Sociocultural section might be partially based on polling of trust in media, which could have dropped, but I don't know where to look into that more. The 2018 report you're talking about…

> It's a ranking, so presumably part of the US dropping is due to other countries improving.

Is that the case? Do the other countries’ entries in the report reflect that?

> I can't think of any metric that would include murders committed by angry men in cartels or angry men with SUVs in India but not angry men with shotguns in America.

One such metric would be whether a country’s justice system arrests and puts the perpetrator on trial, as happened with the American murder and presumably didn’t happen in the case of Mexican cartels or the Indian mob.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#223

Post by Marsymars »

vbezhenar wrote: post #98
yonixwm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other extreme, Are media that spread misinformation without any due process are just protected indefinitely? Like in this very recent case: https://honestreporting.com/damage-done-how-al-jazeeras-fake... Edit: haaretz link: https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2024-0...

[flagged]

> My opinion is that freedom of speech must be absolute, despite all the issues and shortcomings coming with it. You must be able to speak, write, draw anything you like, without any limits.

This would make all libel and defamation permissible.

This would make any type of business fraud permissible.

This would make it permissible to lie and fabricate documentation in order to target vulnerable populations for theft and fraud.

This would make identity impersonation (including of, say, law enforcement, medical, legal, or engineering professionals) permissible.

This would make it permissible to fabricate evidence for use in legal cases.

This would make it permissible to lie or fabricate evidence for sexual partners regarding STIs or contraceptive use.

Other than free speech zealots, you're not going to get anyone on board with rebuilding society so that we have to preemptively guard against all of these things, and have no recourse against bad actors.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#224

Post by SauciestGNU »

jolj wrote: post #186
beyondCritics wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you back up the implied claims with some references?

Not parent, but: 1. False report about IDF rape https://www.timesofisrael.com/al-jazeera-report-alleging-idf... 2. Arabic vs English Al Jazeera, conflicting messages https://english.alarabiya.net/News/gulf/2017/10/01/Al-Jazeer... https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/aljazeer... 3. Al Jazeera reporters doubling as Hamas members https://www.timesofisrael.com/wounded-al-jazeera-reporter-in... https://www.…

Times of Israel is the media of a different belligerent in this conflict, why on earth should I trust them to debunk AJ anymore than I should trust AJ to truthfully report on Israel?

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#227

Post by qarl »

kelthuzad wrote: post #78
qarl wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm totally with you. At this point it's like the Hatfields and the McCoys. I don't care what was the last thing the other guy did - he did it to get back at you for the second to last thing you did. On the other hand, killing children is always wrong. Fucking stop it.

It's not a "cycle of violence" - "both sides" scenario for anyone who has actually put in the effort to study the history in detail. Since you brought up the "cycle of violence" argument, I remember Shaun making an excellent video[1] on the topic and also addressing that specific talking point. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xottY-7m3k&t=10s

I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#229

Post by cma »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #125
Bullfight2Cond wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RT was heavily censored in the USA and is banned in several European countries. Press censorship is pretty much the norm in 'western democracies' similar to everywhere else.

> RT was heavily censored in the USA Source?

I don't know of any outright censorship of it, but all US journalists who worked for it were no longer allowed to after the outbreak of the war. If money is speech under citizens united, then pay for journalism would seem like it could possibly be protected under the same standard, though I think election funding is still allowed to be banned from foreign states even if they use super-PACs.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#230

Post by quonn »

DataDaemon wrote: post #26

How is this possible in a democratic country?

There is plenty of precedent as others have pointed out, including in the EU.

And we are talking about a media outlet controlled by the government of a foreign country that also directly finances the opposing terrorist group and houses their leaders.

Democracy merely depends on free media, not on free foreign or adversary media.

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