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How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

construction-physics.com

81–90 of 96 posts

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would lower prices be beneficial? Americans already had the highest living standards in the world.

In 600 BCE some population had the highest living standards in the world. Was that the peak of human flourishing that we ever should have aspired to?

Still have not answered my question. Why is lower prices better? Why would vastly higher consumption coupled with vastly decreased production be beneficial?

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#82
post #33

Fascinating article, thanks. > (There is a Moore’s Second Law, also known as Rock’s Law, which posits that the cost of a semiconductor fab doubles every four years.) If this were to hold, then in under 30 years a single fab would cost more than three trillion dollars, which itself implies a hard upper bound on node improvements by way of economic considerations.

It's fascinating how precise this math is tho.

30 years ago, Microsoft matketcap was around the same 20bi. Today it's 3T.

It would totally make sense for it to happen again.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#83
post #33

Fascinating article, thanks. > (There is a Moore’s Second Law, also known as Rock’s Law, which posits that the cost of a semiconductor fab doubles every four years.) If this were to hold, then in under 30 years a single fab would cost more than three trillion dollars, which itself implies a hard upper bound on node improvements by way of economic considerations.

Sam Altman was off trying to raise $7 trillion for chips the other day so maybe he's trying to get ahead to the curve.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 600 BCE some population had the highest living standards in the world. Was that the peak of human flourishing that we ever should have aspired to?

Still have not answered my question. Why is lower prices better? Why would vastly higher consumption coupled with vastly decreased production be beneficial?

More things, less work sounds like utopia to me. Bring on the replicators!

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#85
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is called a positive externality. It is why outsourcing produced much more devastation than was promised and why onshoring will create much more work than expected. The end result currently will likely be stagflation since like always politiciand do the wrong thing even when doing the right thing.

That's not why outsourcing created devastation. The issue without outsourcing is that the benefits are widespread (lower prices!) but the drawbacks are concentrated (factory town is now a hellhole). And our political system is incapable of redistributing correctly even though the net effect is highly positive. The seminal study on the topic is the "China shock" paper from Autor et Al.: https://www.nber.org/papers/w21…

2016

More recently, the drawbacks have been far more global in nature.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most rust cleaner that you buy at the store is HF solution. For example, the one that teen used was 1.5% HF.

I can't believe that worked. Industrially (by which I mean how it was done circa 1970), silicon oxide and silicon nitride was etched using a buffered HF solution known as BOE (buffered oxide etchant). The buffer was typically ammonium fluoride; because of the presence of the buffer, the concentration of fluorine ions in solution stays constant even as some of the fluorine attacks the substrate to form e.g. hexafluoro…

Yep, he used an ammonium fluoride buffer. > Instead of a standard HF etch, a buffered oxide etch of NH4F (Ammonium Fluoride) in HF can be used to control the etch rate and photoresist lifting. I use approximately 20-30g of 100% NH4F per 50mL of HF (stock whink rust remover)

Ammonium fluoride definitely isn’t as easily accessible as rust cleaner, but you could buy it for a somewhat cheap price on Amazon.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#87
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSMC has moved many engineers from Taiwan to Phoenix. Entire towns were built with accomodation, schools, ethnic grocery stores from scratch. It would be interesting to see this initiative's cultural and economic impact on Phoenix in the years to come.

I’m hugely supportive of the new factories and investments, but I’m curious why they decided on Phoenix which seems to be affected dramatically by climate change and incidentally has a very different climate and culture from Taiwan.

A few possible reasons: Cheap & reliable electricity (https://www.axios.com/local/phoenix/2024/04/26/arizona-power...), low seismic activity (https://www.spglobal.com/mobility/en/research-analysis/brief...), existing semiconductor supporting industries (as mentioned elsewhere in this thread), and a politically favorable business environment.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#88
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ancilliary companies any pertinent examples? r.g. schools for workers families ?

The show was talking about chip packaging companies to create the end usable chips from the silicon produced. Just for the construction work alone, they mentioned that the pipefitters local union membership has doubled since 2020. Refinery level complexity on the specialized piping needs for the plants. Special training programs geared towards the semiconductor industry being offered in the local Community and Trade…

> People who were teachers now making four times the income working on the construction project.

Targeted investment! Toward future generations of chips, rather than of people.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#89

One part really jumped out at me: Thus only a very small number of companies (currently TSMC, Samsung, and Intel) attempt to operate leading-edge nodes, and the industry has shifted to a “fabless” model where companies like Apple and Nvidia design their chips but have them manufactured by “foundries” like TSMC. By pooling the orders of many different chip companies, the foundries can achieve the scale necessary to af…

It is already true. The cost of training gpt jumped exponentially per model, in the realm of millions upon millions. There's a good reason why the latest gpt-4 competitor is meta or Google.

ChatGPT-4 shows a certain awareness of its own training investment: If asked, it will say it "contains data up to December 2023".

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#90
post #66

The stated tolerances of typical manufacturing processes seem to be off by at least an order of magnitude. Not that it does make sense to give a tolerance number without some magnitude it applies to, nonetheless, 0.125mm stated tolerance of CNC machining is ridiculous.

Off in what direction? A tolerance of 1/8 millimeter (5 mils) can certainly be achieved by CNC machining, but not always by the cheapest tools. You mean that it is easy to achieve much smaller tolerances than this by CNC machining? Googling for "CNC machining tolerances" finds at first hit a guide that says "For CNC machining, the standard tolerance limit is set around +/-.005” (0.127 mm)." The next hits show the sam…

The discussion is somewhat moot, what did bug me is that the article claims those are typical tolerances inherent in the machining / wire edm / molding processes whereas it just may be the tolerance that is applied if nothing else is agreed upon. You can achieve much tighter tolerances if needed, even in mass-produced stuff like LEGO bricks, plastic lenses, iphone / macbook cases, PCBs, etc...
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