Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

construction-physics.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 96 posts

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#61

Post by navigate8310 »

wuj wrote: post #7
gjkood wrote: post #2

I have been listening to Kai Ryssdal's Marketplace on NPR/KQED the last few days on my commute home from work. The topic for the last several days was on the CHIPS And Science Act and the new Semiconductor Fabs being built by TSMC and Intel in Phoenx, AZ. It will be several years before the plants already being constructed will go into production but there is a whole ecosystem of current construction, education of th…

TSMC has moved many engineers from Taiwan to Phoenix. Entire towns were built with accomodation, schools, ethnic grocery stores from scratch. It would be interesting to see this initiative's cultural and economic impact on Phoenix in the years to come.

Here's another fascinating article about the cultural struggles faced by TSMC in order to expand in Phoenix: https://restofworld.org/2024/tsmc-arizona-expansion/

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#62

Post by langsoul-com »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #35

One part really jumped out at me: Thus only a very small number of companies (currently TSMC, Samsung, and Intel) attempt to operate leading-edge nodes, and the industry has shifted to a “fabless” model where companies like Apple and Nvidia design their chips but have them manufactured by “foundries” like TSMC. By pooling the orders of many different chip companies, the foundries can achieve the scale necessary to af…

It is already true. The cost of training gpt jumped exponentially per model, in the realm of millions upon millions.

There's a good reason why the latest gpt-4 competitor is meta or Google.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#63

Post by langsoul-com »

ijidak wrote: post #23

So, semi-related question. Is Intel buying any EUV machines from ASML. Not asking about High-NA machines, but regular EUV machines? I can't find the answer online although I do see that the New Ireland Fab seems to be in the regular EUV range.

Everyone has to buy from ASML, and even if someone wants one, there's a wait list.

The sheer complexity and costs means there's no real possibility of a competitor. Nor would a billion dollar fab want to experiment with a new company.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#65

Post by amelius »

pests wrote: post #37
krishadi wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sam is now building Atomic Semi [0] with Jim Keller (ex AMD) [0] https://atomicsemi.com/about/#:~:text=general%20fabrication%...

You say ex AMD like that's all he's known for. Jim Keller is like some fairy who flies around companies designing sota chips. From DEC, to AMD, to ARM and Broadcom, his own firm, hops over to Apple which then buys his old firm, heads back to ARM and then over to Tesla and finally one last stop at Intel before going into startup land again. Worked on the K7/K8, MIPs for networking, did the A4 and A5 for Apple, on the…

But building a fab is less about designing chips (which is a lot like programming) and more about chemistry and fundamental physics.

So that fairy is completely useless in this context.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#66

Post by rmu09 »

The stated tolerances of typical manufacturing processes seem to be off by at least an order of magnitude. Not that it does make sense to give a tolerance number without some magnitude it applies to, nonetheless, 0.125mm stated tolerance of CNC machining is ridiculous.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#67

Post by drevil-v2 »

VHRanger wrote: post #41
trwm wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is called a positive externality. It is why outsourcing produced much more devastation than was promised and why onshoring will create much more work than expected. The end result currently will likely be stagflation since like always politiciand do the wrong thing even when doing the right thing.

That's not why outsourcing created devastation. The issue without outsourcing is that the benefits are widespread (lower prices!) but the drawbacks are concentrated (factory town is now a hellhole). And our political system is incapable of redistributing correctly even though the net effect is highly positive. The seminal study on the topic is the "China shock" paper from Autor et Al.: https://www.nber.org/papers/w21…

Why would lower prices be beneficial? Americans already had the highest living standards in the world.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#68

Post by fisheuler »

CHM(computer history museum) have conducted an oral history interview with TSMC found Morris Chang in 2007. Chang told his personal Odyssey in this interview, from inner China to Taiwan, studying and working at US, PhD application refused by MIT, but luckily he choose a fast rocket track in the industry, after he accumulated enough wealth, industry insight, connections etc... He returned to Taiwan to found TMSC, else is the story. Also he compared Asian and American engineering styles:

"I think the Asian engineers tend to be more methodical, they tend to be more studious, more orderly engineers; whereas, the U.S. engineers tend to be more innovative, but they tend not to be as methodical and orderly as the Asian engineers. ......

On the other hand, I also think that one group can accompany another group, you know. You can have an innovative group but not so methodical and so on, and then you can have a methodical group maybe not very innovative accompanying each other. "

https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/20...

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#69

Post by wslh »

wuj wrote: post #7
gjkood wrote: post #2

I have been listening to Kai Ryssdal's Marketplace on NPR/KQED the last few days on my commute home from work. The topic for the last several days was on the CHIPS And Science Act and the new Semiconductor Fabs being built by TSMC and Intel in Phoenx, AZ. It will be several years before the plants already being constructed will go into production but there is a whole ecosystem of current construction, education of th…

TSMC has moved many engineers from Taiwan to Phoenix. Entire towns were built with accomodation, schools, ethnic grocery stores from scratch. It would be interesting to see this initiative's cultural and economic impact on Phoenix in the years to come.

Could we say this is the "Manhattan or Apollo 11 Project for Chips"? For its articulation.

BTW, about this topic, I always recall "A View To Kill" James Bond's (1985) movie [1]. The top hit in the soundtrack from Duran Duran [2] is also recommended and playing in radios even today. Seems like Intel passed the torch long time ago but don't forget to read the mantra book: "Only the Paranoid Survive" [3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_View_to_a_Kill

[2] https://open.spotify.com/track/6I4snLrVOrJsLdd43isc27?si=7ba...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Grove#Books

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#70

Post by bradleyjg »

drevil-v2 wrote: post #67
VHRanger wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not why outsourcing created devastation. The issue without outsourcing is that the benefits are widespread (lower prices!) but the drawbacks are concentrated (factory town is now a hellhole). And our political system is incapable of redistributing correctly even though the net effect is highly positive. The seminal study on the topic is the "China shock" paper from Autor et Al.: https://www.nber.org/papers/w21…

Why would lower prices be beneficial? Americans already had the highest living standards in the world.

In 600 BCE some population had the highest living standards in the world. Was that the peak of human flourishing that we ever should have aspired to?
Post reply on HN