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How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

construction-physics.com

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Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#31

Post by kortilla »

patmcc wrote: post #18
xyst wrote: post #12

At what point will current fabrication plants reach their limit? Is it a supply issue? Or maybe a resource constraint? > Similarly, a fab will use very large amounts of ultrapure water for wafer cleaning and CMP, along with the regular water for things like chillers for process cooling. A large fab can use millions of gallons of ultrapure water a day, as much as a town of 50,000 people, and producing it requires its…

"...as much as a town of 50,000 people" This is always so funny to me. Oh, something that can make enough chips for millions/billions of devices also uses as much water as a small town? That sounds perfectly reasonable. Don't build it in the middle of the desert, I guess, but otherwise it's not a problem.

The desert is fine. That’s like a couple of idiotic farms worth of water for a much larger benefit.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#32

Post by SECProto »

duxup wrote: post #25
tnmom wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of that money goes to permitting, admin, and insurance. What you’re seeing is probably the $10-20 million that wasn’t successfully siphoned off by bureaucrats.

> Much of that money goes to permitting, How much?

Their comment suggests 50 to 75%, which is hilariously high.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#33

Post by kibwen »

Fascinating article, thanks.

> (There is a Moore’s Second Law, also known as Rock’s Law, which posits that the cost of a semiconductor fab doubles every four years.)

If this were to hold, then in under 30 years a single fab would cost more than three trillion dollars, which itself implies a hard upper bound on node improvements by way of economic considerations.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#34

Post by Aloisius »

ijidak wrote: post #23

So, semi-related question. Is Intel buying any EUV machines from ASML. Not asking about High-NA machines, but regular EUV machines? I can't find the answer online although I do see that the New Ireland Fab seems to be in the regular EUV range.

There is no one else to buy EUV machines from. ASML is the sole supplier in the world.

Fab 34 in Ireland got its first ASML EUV machine two years ago.

I don't believe High NA EUV machines will end up in this generation of fabs. The first one was shipped to Intel's dev fab a few months back.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#35

Post by etaioinshrdlu »

One part really jumped out at me:

    Thus only a very small number of companies (currently TSMC, Samsung, and Intel) attempt to operate leading-edge nodes, and the industry has shifted to a “fabless” model where companies like Apple and Nvidia design their chips but have them manufactured by “foundries” like TSMC. By pooling the orders of many different chip companies, the foundries can achieve the scale necessary to afford cutting edge fabs.
I wonder if AI training will end up being similar in the long-term (it's already partially true today).

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#37

Post by pests »

krishadi wrote: post #6
ghghgfdfgh wrote: post #5

Somewhat related: a high school student creating his own semiconductor fav in his parent’s garage on a "budget". https://youtube.com/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg It’s a thoroughly interesting video, but I’m a bit disappointed he never took his idea any further than he did. I’d really love to see something like a 6502 being made at home.

Sam is now building Atomic Semi [0] with Jim Keller (ex AMD) [0] https://atomicsemi.com/about/#:~:text=general%20fabrication%...

You say ex AMD like that's all he's known for. Jim Keller is like some fairy who flies around companies designing sota chips.

From DEC, to AMD, to ARM and Broadcom, his own firm, hops over to Apple which then buys his old firm, heads back to ARM and then over to Tesla and finally one last stop at Intel before going into startup land again.

Worked on the K7/K8, MIPs for networking, did the A4 and A5 for Apple, on the Zen/K12, and the Tesla TPU.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#38

Post by zdw »

gjkood wrote: post #16
psaux wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not know this, I have family in Tempe close by. Do you have any references I can pass along to them?

I believe the new term for Phoenix, AZ and other major cities in AZ is "Silicon Desert". You can see a map of the many companies in the high tech space in AZ at the following site. https://siliconmaps.com/silicon-desert/

Being an AZ resident, this map is hilarious as it skips out the ~100 mile distance between Chandler and Tucson.

Tucson is more well known for optics, but more focused on space science than on use in silicon fabs.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#39

Post by ijidak »

Aloisius wrote: post #34
ijidak wrote: post #23

So, semi-related question. Is Intel buying any EUV machines from ASML. Not asking about High-NA machines, but regular EUV machines? I can't find the answer online although I do see that the New Ireland Fab seems to be in the regular EUV range.

There is no one else to buy EUV machines from. ASML is the sole supplier in the world. Fab 34 in Ireland got its first ASML EUV machine two years ago. I don't believe High NA EUV machines will end up in this generation of fabs. The first one was shipped to Intel's dev fab a few months back.

But, did Intel skip EUV entirely, or did it finally start buying EUV machines?

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#40

Post by moneywoes »

gjkood wrote: post #2

I have been listening to Kai Ryssdal's Marketplace on NPR/KQED the last few days on my commute home from work. The topic for the last several days was on the CHIPS And Science Act and the new Semiconductor Fabs being built by TSMC and Intel in Phoenx, AZ. It will be several years before the plants already being constructed will go into production but there is a whole ecosystem of current construction, education of th…

> ancilliary companies

any pertinent examples? r.g. schools for workers families ?

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