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How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

construction-physics.com

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Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#51

Post by ac29 »

ijidak wrote: post #46
gjkood wrote: post #2

I have been listening to Kai Ryssdal's Marketplace on NPR/KQED the last few days on my commute home from work. The topic for the last several days was on the CHIPS And Science Act and the new Semiconductor Fabs being built by TSMC and Intel in Phoenx, AZ. It will be several years before the plants already being constructed will go into production but there is a whole ecosystem of current construction, education of th…

So, is Intel buying ASML EUV machines for their build out in Arizona? It seems like Intel is skipping ASML EUV entirely. If that's the case, I'm trying to understand how Intel ever gets decent yields at 7nm to 5nm. It's definitely not coming from High-NA, which seems like a short-term distraction.

Intel is using EUV for Intel 4, which has been shipping in volume since the beginning of the year.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#52

Post by nwiswell »

ghghgfdfgh wrote: post #44
nwiswell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very similar to creating clothes by hand at home. Can you do it, given the right tools, training, and patience? Yes. Will they be any good? No. Will they be cost-competitive? No. Getting chips made on a shuttle run for an old node is very affordable. There's really no need for it. (According to one MPW supplier, 10mm2 of 340nm, up to 10 dies, costs 6400 euros, and it's unlikely 340nm is achievable in a garage an…

From a business perspective, I agree that it’s a fool’s errand. But imagine being able to design and tangibly build your own computer, at home. 6400 euros is pennies for a business, but exorbitant for an individual. I believe the way Sam Zeloof circumvents the enormous amount of capital needed for a chip fab by relying on modern technology to create 1970’s technology. He simply mounts a cheap digital projector onto a…

You'd spend far more than 6400 euros to do it at home.

If you did it often and didn't count your own labor costs, then maybe the average cost would be less, but that's an incredibly specific situation.

> I believe the way Sam Zeloof circumvents the enormous amount of capital needed for a chip fab by relying on modern technology to create 1970’s technology

Yes, exactly.

Old lithographic technology is so crude that you can even use modern high resolution laserjets to print masks (10000 dpi is less than 3 microns).

Even so, 1970s-era CVD, PVD, and plasma etch is still quite complicated, and CMP is impossible (it hadn't even been invented yet). So the devices you can create are significantly integration-constrained.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#53

Post by ghghgfdfgh »

xeonmc wrote: post #47
nwiswell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very similar to creating clothes by hand at home. Can you do it, given the right tools, training, and patience? Yes. Will they be any good? No. Will they be cost-competitive? No. Getting chips made on a shuttle run for an old node is very affordable. There's really no need for it. (According to one MPW supplier, 10mm2 of 340nm, up to 10 dies, costs 6400 euros, and it's unlikely 340nm is achievable in a garage an…

really the main dealbreaker is HF at home, the rest of chipmaking really isn't that complicated on the process level for a crude design.

Most rust cleaner that you buy at the store is HF solution. For example, the one that teen used was 1.5% HF.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#54

Post by gjkood »

moneywoes wrote: post #40
gjkood wrote: post #2

I have been listening to Kai Ryssdal's Marketplace on NPR/KQED the last few days on my commute home from work. The topic for the last several days was on the CHIPS And Science Act and the new Semiconductor Fabs being built by TSMC and Intel in Phoenx, AZ. It will be several years before the plants already being constructed will go into production but there is a whole ecosystem of current construction, education of th…

> ancilliary companies any pertinent examples? r.g. schools for workers families ?

The show was talking about chip packaging companies to create the end usable chips from the silicon produced.

Just for the construction work alone, they mentioned that the pipefitters local union membership has doubled since 2020. Refinery level complexity on the specialized piping needs for the plants.

Special training programs geared towards the semiconductor industry being offered in the local Community and Trade schools training people to be the skilled and semi-skilled workforce for these companies.

People who were teachers now making four times the income working on the construction project.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#55

Post by nwiswell »

ghghgfdfgh wrote: post #53
xeonmc wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

really the main dealbreaker is HF at home, the rest of chipmaking really isn't that complicated on the process level for a crude design.

Most rust cleaner that you buy at the store is HF solution. For example, the one that teen used was 1.5% HF.

I can't believe that worked.

Industrially (by which I mean how it was done circa 1970), silicon oxide and silicon nitride was etched using a buffered HF solution known as BOE (buffered oxide etchant). The buffer was typically ammonium fluoride; because of the presence of the buffer, the concentration of fluorine ions in solution stays constant even as some of the fluorine attacks the substrate to form e.g. hexafluorosilicic acid. Since the concentration of fluorine stays constant, so does the etch rate.

If you just pull some rust cleaner off the shelf at home depot, the etch rate will crash as the concentration of fluorine ions decreases. That's compounded by the fact that the HF concentration isn't very high in the first place.

As a result it would be very difficult to determine how long your wafer should remain in the etch bath. Underetching could easily cause "opens" in the circuits from unremoved insulator, and overetching and/or undercut can destroy the patterns you're trying to produce. Either way it can ruin the chip.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#56

Post by jonhohle »

wuj wrote: post #7
gjkood wrote: post #2

I have been listening to Kai Ryssdal's Marketplace on NPR/KQED the last few days on my commute home from work. The topic for the last several days was on the CHIPS And Science Act and the new Semiconductor Fabs being built by TSMC and Intel in Phoenx, AZ. It will be several years before the plants already being constructed will go into production but there is a whole ecosystem of current construction, education of th…

TSMC has moved many engineers from Taiwan to Phoenix. Entire towns were built with accomodation, schools, ethnic grocery stores from scratch. It would be interesting to see this initiative's cultural and economic impact on Phoenix in the years to come.

I’m not sure where “towns” (plural) are being built. The first plant is across the highway from a master planned community that was built 20 years ago, long before any fabs were being discussed in that area.

There certainly is a lot of development there, but it’s not like a factory town or anything.

There’s an outdoor recreational shooting facility across the street. I can only assume that is a huge culture shock for anyone coming over from Taiwan.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#57

Post by philosopher1234 »

trwm wrote: post #43
VHRanger wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not why outsourcing created devastation. The issue without outsourcing is that the benefits are widespread (lower prices!) but the drawbacks are concentrated (factory town is now a hellhole). And our political system is incapable of redistributing correctly even though the net effect is highly positive. The seminal study on the topic is the "China shock" paper from Autor et Al.: https://www.nber.org/papers/w21…

The multiplier effect is well known and understood. Nit sure why you're arguing against it.

I don’t know or understand this multiplier effect you’re referring to. If you’d like to persuade me (and I assume other readers) explaining your argument might be more effective. Instead I get a sense of “don’t argue against me” as opposed to “this is why I’m right”

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#58

Post by jc_811 »

What a fascinating article. It truly blows my mind just how advanced humans have become. When playing angry birds on an iPhone we tend to forget the insane amount of research, resources, and specialized expertise that has made all the modern tech world possible.

I’d also highly recommend the book Chip Wars by Chris Miller for anyone looking for a deeper dive into the history and current dilemmas of the semiconductor industry

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#59

Post by TeMPOraL »

VHRanger wrote: post #41
trwm wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is called a positive externality. It is why outsourcing produced much more devastation than was promised and why onshoring will create much more work than expected. The end result currently will likely be stagflation since like always politiciand do the wrong thing even when doing the right thing.

That's not why outsourcing created devastation. The issue without outsourcing is that the benefits are widespread (lower prices!) but the drawbacks are concentrated (factory town is now a hellhole). And our political system is incapable of redistributing correctly even though the net effect is highly positive. The seminal study on the topic is the "China shock" paper from Autor et Al.: https://www.nber.org/papers/w21…

Strange, because put this way, it should be entirely positive - widespread benefits and concentrated drawbacks are what we want to happen, as it benefits more people and concentrated problems are much easier to manage. What's very bad is when benefits are concentrated (often in the hands of a small group), and drawbacks are widespread, and therefore near-impossible to manage. See e.g. pollution, emissions...

... and outsourcing. The benefits are concentrated: profits captured by the companies doing the outsourcing. Sure, they may sometimes trickle down to the consumer, but the costs - the distributed drawbacks - are inferior quality of goods, elimination of local jobs, high ecological footprint, abusive business practices, lack of effective customer support. And the extra magic here is, it spreads direct responsibility over national borders, so it's near-impossible to hold anyone to account.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#60

Post by ghaff »

nwiswell wrote: post #27
ghghgfdfgh wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's good for him, but it means we'll never find out in the near future whether it's possible for the average person to create useful ICs in their garage.

It's very similar to creating clothes by hand at home. Can you do it, given the right tools, training, and patience? Yes. Will they be any good? No. Will they be cost-competitive? No. Getting chips made on a shuttle run for an old node is very affordable. There's really no need for it. (According to one MPW supplier, 10mm2 of 340nm, up to 10 dies, costs 6400 euros, and it's unlikely 340nm is achievable in a garage an…

Maybe a little different. For narrow enough definitions of "clothing," homemade clothing can be good. And there are other artisanal homemade crafts (e.g. woodworking) that can be good. But I agree in general.
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