Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

construction-physics.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 96 posts

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#71

Post by _Microft »

nwiswell wrote: post #52
ghghgfdfgh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a business perspective, I agree that it’s a fool’s errand. But imagine being able to design and tangibly build your own computer, at home. 6400 euros is pennies for a business, but exorbitant for an individual. I believe the way Sam Zeloof circumvents the enormous amount of capital needed for a chip fab by relying on modern technology to create 1970’s technology. He simply mounts a cheap digital projector onto a…

You'd spend far more than 6400 euros to do it at home. If you did it often and didn't count your own labor costs, then maybe the average cost would be less, but that's an incredibly specific situation. > I believe the way Sam Zeloof circumvents the enormous amount of capital needed for a chip fab by relying on modern technology to create 1970’s technology Yes, exactly. Old lithographic technology is so crude that you…

Do you have examples for models of laser printers can actually achieve a resolution of 10000dpi? It doesn't need to be office equipment. Any example would suffice as I so far thought that laser printouts were limited to a maximum resolution between 1200 and 2400dpi.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#72

Post by mensetmanusman »

amelius wrote: post #65
pests wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say ex AMD like that's all he's known for. Jim Keller is like some fairy who flies around companies designing sota chips. From DEC, to AMD, to ARM and Broadcom, his own firm, hops over to Apple which then buys his old firm, heads back to ARM and then over to Tesla and finally one last stop at Intel before going into startup land again. Worked on the K7/K8, MIPs for networking, did the A4 and A5 for Apple, on the…

But building a fab is less about designing chips (which is a lot like programming) and more about chemistry and fundamental physics. So that fairy is completely useless in this context.

Good design incorporates materials and process limitations, which in this industry changes every other year enough to matter.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#73

Post by adrian_b »

rmu09 wrote: post #66

The stated tolerances of typical manufacturing processes seem to be off by at least an order of magnitude. Not that it does make sense to give a tolerance number without some magnitude it applies to, nonetheless, 0.125mm stated tolerance of CNC machining is ridiculous.

Off in what direction?

A tolerance of 1/8 millimeter (5 mils) can certainly be achieved by CNC machining, but not always by the cheapest tools.

You mean that it is easy to achieve much smaller tolerances than this by CNC machining?

Googling for "CNC machining tolerances" finds at first hit a guide that says "For CNC machining, the standard tolerance limit is set around +/-.005” (0.127 mm)."

The next hits show the same 5 mils standard tolerance, but they also mention the availability of better tolerances, like 2 mils or even less, but at higher costs and subject to various constraints on the features to which they are applicable.

So it appears that the tolerance written in the article is indeed typical, as claimed.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#74

Post by jacobsimon »

wuj wrote: post #7
gjkood wrote: post #2

I have been listening to Kai Ryssdal's Marketplace on NPR/KQED the last few days on my commute home from work. The topic for the last several days was on the CHIPS And Science Act and the new Semiconductor Fabs being built by TSMC and Intel in Phoenx, AZ. It will be several years before the plants already being constructed will go into production but there is a whole ecosystem of current construction, education of th…

TSMC has moved many engineers from Taiwan to Phoenix. Entire towns were built with accomodation, schools, ethnic grocery stores from scratch. It would be interesting to see this initiative's cultural and economic impact on Phoenix in the years to come.

I’m hugely supportive of the new factories and investments, but I’m curious why they decided on Phoenix which seems to be affected dramatically by climate change and incidentally has a very different climate and culture from Taiwan.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#75

Post by 11thEarlOfMar »

For comparison, the cost to build the World Trade Center was $2 Billion.

BTW, having spent 35 years in the semiconductor industry, this is the best 'layman's' description of what goes into chip fabrication I have seen. A perfect blend of description and illustration without over simplifying.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#76

Post by simonbarker87 »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #75

For comparison, the cost to build the World Trade Center was $2 Billion. BTW, having spent 35 years in the semiconductor industry, this is the best 'layman's' description of what goes into chip fabrication I have seen. A perfect blend of description and illustration without over simplifying.

I was thinking the same. My PhD was in SiC adjacent stuff and tbh I could have done with this explainer back then to get me up to speed.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#77

Post by 11thEarlOfMar »

jacobsimon wrote: post #74
wuj wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSMC has moved many engineers from Taiwan to Phoenix. Entire towns were built with accomodation, schools, ethnic grocery stores from scratch. It would be interesting to see this initiative's cultural and economic impact on Phoenix in the years to come.

I’m hugely supportive of the new factories and investments, but I’m curious why they decided on Phoenix which seems to be affected dramatically by climate change and incidentally has a very different climate and culture from Taiwan.

There are already a number of fabs there. Intel has a big presence. Government support, infranstructure and an experienced (although insufficient at this point) workforce are already there.

The reason there is a chip fab activity in Phoenix goes back to 1949 [0] when Motorola built a lab there. In 1952, they started making semiconductors and eventually chips.

[0] https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA79561583&sid=googleSc...

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#78

Post by ijidak »

ac29 wrote: post #51
ijidak wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, is Intel buying ASML EUV machines for their build out in Arizona? It seems like Intel is skipping ASML EUV entirely. If that's the case, I'm trying to understand how Intel ever gets decent yields at 7nm to 5nm. It's definitely not coming from High-NA, which seems like a short-term distraction.

Intel is using EUV for Intel 4, which has been shipping in volume since the beginning of the year.

Aha. Thank you so much for that.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#79

Post by amelius »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #72
amelius wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But building a fab is less about designing chips (which is a lot like programming) and more about chemistry and fundamental physics. So that fairy is completely useless in this context.

Good design incorporates materials and process limitations, which in this industry changes every other year enough to matter.

That doesn't mean you need an IC designer to build a fab.

Re: How to build a $20B semiconductor fab

#80

Post by onthecanposting »

navigate8310 wrote: post #61
wuj wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSMC has moved many engineers from Taiwan to Phoenix. Entire towns were built with accomodation, schools, ethnic grocery stores from scratch. It would be interesting to see this initiative's cultural and economic impact on Phoenix in the years to come.

Here's another fascinating article about the cultural struggles faced by TSMC in order to expand in Phoenix: https://restofworld.org/2024/tsmc-arizona-expansion/

Honestly, this sounds like normal life being a junior employee at a big company. An ossified clique of old guard managers pick winners and losers with little regard for merit? Unbelievable bureaucratic overhead? Your boss expects you to flatter and fawn all over him because he allows you to work 50-60hrs a week at 80% the median salary without overtime pay? Sorry to say, this is just what they're all like. Do good work, make friends, and try to get a job at a small company where people treat each other decently and incompetents can't hide in the crowd.
Post reply on HN