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Every map of China is wrong

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Re: Every map of China is wrong

#191

Post by barrkel »

throwaway4good wrote: post #105
jillesvangurp wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a means to keep detailed maps out of the hands of an enemy it's indeed not great. As it's all rather obvious to reverse engineer this and people have indeed done so. But as a means to force foreign companies to use Chinese data suppliers this works perfectly. Because using this software would be illegal in China and anyone looking to business there legally would end up having to use Chinese data centers, Chinese d…

Some elaborate technical trade barrier? I think that is giving them too much credit. This is thinking from a military apparatus stuck in the 1950es.

China has been for some time a mercantile state that believed trade surplus and subsidising local production would create geopolitical strategic outcomes in its favour.

It's a bit less like that now as Xi drifts into a more personal dictatorship.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#192

Post by miohtama »

Related, Google Maps does not work in South Korea. Only local Maps application.

Because of the threat of North Korea (surely North Koreans cannot find the local map application in the app store).

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#193

Post by somat »

toss1 wrote: post #34
Reason077 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, despite its apparent illegality, China seems to be fairly well-supported and well-mapped by OpenStreetMap, at least in major cities. And is entirely mapped in normal WGS-84 without the obfuscation problem. In any case, according to Wikipedia, open-source code is available to convert between WGS-84 and the obfuscated GJC-02 coordinates. Since technology seems to have caught up with it, is there any advantage (…

Great point. This seems like low-intelligence autocratic bullshirt more than anything. Does the CCP really think that the US military are going to use ordinary street msps to target their missiles and that this obfuscation will protect them from on-target hits? Sure, in WWII there were a few apocryphal instances of bad maps foiling an attack, but that was decades before mapping satellites. As mentioned, it's been a l…

There is the cautionary tale of the US invasion of Grenada. Where because no military maps of the country could be found in time. tourist maps with a military grid penned on were distributed to the troops. While we hope our much vaunted modern systems make this impossible, the reality is, that any large scale operation is a series of fuck ups while people figure out how to make it work.

https://www.militarytimes.com/veterans/military-history/2018...

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#194

Post by alephnerd »

cbeach wrote: post #180
amelius wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can use facial recognition etc, yet the people can't even make maps. What a nightmare of a country is that.

Ironic, that socialist/communist regimes always win power on the idea of giving control and ownership of assets back to "the people" The reality, of course, is that the people end up giving control and ownership to a one-party state. The four remaining Marxist-Leninist states are China, Cuba, Laos and Vietnam ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Marxi... ) In 2024, their Freedom Indices (out of 10…

China isn't Marxist-Leninist - the CCP split from Marxist thinking and Comintern early in the PRC's history.

It's become it's own thing because anything "communist" is just lip service at this point. Public veneration of past Chinese empires and dynasties is way more common than some idealized view of a proletariat state.

Same with Vietnam (basically a crony capitalist country) and Laos (basically a buffer between Thailand, VN, and China where all three meddle)

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#195

Post by amenhotep »

actionfromafar wrote: post #82
solarkraft wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some of the genius contraptions and tactics that the Russian Army has been caught using in Ukraine This may have gone past me (I mostly remember the highly non-genius tactics), do you have some examples?

They seem to have placed GPS guided glide wing packages on old WW2 stylebombs dropped from bombers. :-/

The UMPK packages look janky to the eye but JDAM is exactly the same thing and nobody makes snarky comments on the internet about that.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#196

Post by paganel »

cbeach wrote: post #180
amelius wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can use facial recognition etc, yet the people can't even make maps. What a nightmare of a country is that.

Ironic, that socialist/communist regimes always win power on the idea of giving control and ownership of assets back to "the people" The reality, of course, is that the people end up giving control and ownership to a one-party state. The four remaining Marxist-Leninist states are China, Cuba, Laos and Vietnam ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Marxi... ) In 2024, their Freedom Indices (out of 10…

Those "freedom indices" come from countries that are all located in the Western sphere of influence, it's like relying on the opinion of an Arsenal supporter when talking about Tottenham (and vice-versa).

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#197

Post by alephnerd »

paganel wrote: post #196
cbeach wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironic, that socialist/communist regimes always win power on the idea of giving control and ownership of assets back to "the people" The reality, of course, is that the people end up giving control and ownership to a one-party state. The four remaining Marxist-Leninist states are China, Cuba, Laos and Vietnam ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Marxi... ) In 2024, their Freedom Indices (out of 10…

Those "freedom indices" come from countries that are all located in the Western sphere of influence, it's like relying on the opinion of an Arsenal supporter when talking about Tottenham (and vice-versa).

I can access Xinhua without using a VPN in the US, and cannot be prosecuted for using a VPN.

I cannot access BBC in China without using a VPN, and can potentially be prosecuted for either action.

I can say Biden/Trump are horrible and need to rot in jail, and my comment with not be deleted by a censor. If I say "Xi dada needs to step down and Li Keiqiang should have been Premier instead, and HK was never an integral part of China" it will get deleted on Sina, and if they really had it out for me prosecute me under NSL.

I can Google for Jan 6th photos without censorship. I cannot Baidu search photos of the Tiannamen square protests and subsequent massacre.

The freedom house index does have issues, but China is absolutely unfree.

Authoritarian states aren't completely unfree (it's organizationally impossible), but China is definetly fairly unfree compared to other authoritarian states like Russia or even Vietnam (though Vietnam is trending towards a more authoritarian future now that Tô Lâm is almost assured to be the next leader)

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#198

Post by himinlomax »

lmz wrote: post #129
himinlomax wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

South Korea is currently at war with a hostile oppressive totalitarian neighbour. China is at war with its people.

Doesn't Taiwan still claim the mainland as its own, at least in theory? Also there are border conflicts with e.g. India.

Taiwan only continues to claim it because rescinding the claim would be seen as "separatist" and thus a casus belli for the CCP to end the status quo.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#199

Post by SeanLuke »

int0x29 wrote: post #46

The US having a dedicated intelligence agency for maps seems to defeat most of the military value of this system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Geospatial-Intelligen...

The US also has a dedicated non-intelligence agency for maps as well, and they are famous for making extremely good ones.

https://www.usgs.gov/products/maps

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#200

Post by SeanLuke »

Laremere wrote: post #88
deanresin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty insane for the writer or even China/Russia to believe the US, with all of its resources, wouldn't be able to make their own accurate maps.

Russia had accurate maps of the UK back in the cold war, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bqzwsM6eoQ

Not just accurate: far and away the most accurate.
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