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Every map of China is wrong

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Re: Every map of China is wrong

#21

Post by Reason077 »

lolc wrote: post #6

So Openstreetmap must be illegal in China! And indeed it is: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/China Of course that doesn't stop people from mapping every bench in China https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=China#map=3/33.99...

Indeed, despite its apparent illegality, China seems to be fairly well-supported and well-mapped by OpenStreetMap, at least in major cities. And is entirely mapped in normal WGS-84 without the obfuscation problem.

In any case, according to Wikipedia, open-source code is available to convert between WGS-84 and the obfuscated GJC-02 coordinates.

Since technology seems to have caught up with it, is there any advantage (military or otherwise) for China to persist with obfuscation? Much like the US gave up on GPS "selective availability" years ago, there would seem now days to be more economic advantage to ditching obfuscation than there is security advantage of keeping it. Is not as if the missiles of China's enemies are going to get confused by China's obfuscated coordinates.

Is it just because of inertia that GJC-02 still exists?

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#22

Post by dudeinjapan »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #2

This just seems bizarre. What’s to stop companies in other countries from meaningfully mapping China using satellite data? Can’t they figure out the amount of obfuscation or use AI algorithms to align the maps correctly?

Yes, it’s just market protectionism. There’s no military advantage to doing this.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#23

Post by nimbius »

lolc wrote: post #13
N19PEDL2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that even taking geotagged photos is illegal in China, indeed some camera models automatically disable geotagging when inside China: https://ogleearth.com/2012/05/why-do-panasonic-leica-fujifil...

Thanks for the details. It is always interesting how the most innocent things are seen as danger by an autocracy.

[flagged]

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#24

Post by acdha »

nimbius wrote: post #23
lolc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the details. It is always interesting how the most innocent things are seen as danger by an autocracy.

[flagged]

Only the last sentence of your first paragraph is true: it’s legal to photograph the police and public spaces _but_ doing so may involve you needing to deal with lawless cops and that can be extremely risky depending on who you are and what mood they’re in. Dealing with that culture should be one of our top priorities.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#25

Post by 5kg »

bschne wrote: post #4
bhaney wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, the only thing stopping them is that China considers it illegal for them to do so. Companies that provide a map of China would probably also like to operate in China, so they comply with their laws.

someone raised this point in another discussion about it, but I wonder if that's the main aim why you need the obscure algorithm in the first place, couldn't you just have these laws about maps of any standard?

(National) Security theatre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater

Plus everyone who's involved will get richer.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#27

Post by eru »

nimbius wrote: post #23
lolc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the details. It is always interesting how the most innocent things are seen as danger by an autocracy.

[flagged]

At some point it was illegal in NYC to go out with a with a mask on, while it was also made illegal to go out without a mask on.

(That was when they were both protests that made them ban masks (that obscure the face), and Covid that made them mandate masks. But I think the laws were written broadly enough that both covering and not covering your face were technically forbidden.)

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#28

Post by criley2 »

nimbius wrote: post #23
lolc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the details. It is always interesting how the most innocent things are seen as danger by an autocracy.

[flagged]

For the record: it is legal to photograph police in all of the US, and is a protected 1st amendment right. Some states or localities might try to outlaw it, but they always lose when challenged. Some police may simply ignore the law and punish you for exercising your rights, but that's different than it being illegal.

With regards to photography on US railroad tracks, there is no law against it. However, railroad tracks are private property and in the US private property owners can control your photography on their property or trespass you from their property, and due to the danger of pedestrians on tracks, railroads understandably disallow pedestrians on tracks for photography.

Re: Every map of China is wrong

#30

Post by javajosh »

Intralexical wrote: post #18
TrulyBright wrote: post #14

South Korea does it too. It forbids Google from access to its official map. Only local enterprises are licensed to get it. Precisely, the government bans the export of geographical data abroad. Check out the 243rd page of a US government report on trade barrier: https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2024%20NTE%20Report_1.p...

The consequences for them seem a bit more urgent, though, given Seoul lying in artillery range of the DMZ.

Yes, I'm sure obfuscating Google Street maps will prevent DPR artillery from accurately striking targets in Seoul.
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