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FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

nytimes.com

571–580 of 598 posts

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that is just the "FCC FACT SHEET" as it says in the top title of the document. It is not the actual rule/action. It is also the exact same link that the poster just above me already gave.

>Yes that is just the "FCC FACT SHEET" as it says in the top title of the document. It is not the actual rule/action. It is also the exact same link that the poster just above me already gave. No. The first page is the "fact sheet." The other 693 pages is the rule-making document. Or are you unable to read past the first line of the first page?

> No. The first page is the "fact sheet." The other 693 pages is the rule-making document.

You are incredibly rude for someone who is also incredibly wrong. It is strange that whenever we are one of those, we all seem far more likely to be the other as well.

Only the last two pages before the appendix is "the rule-making document", and the 4 pages of appendix A - just six pages in total. The rest is a dialogue on why the rules are needed and provide context to understand the intent of the rules. The rule starts at "X. ORDERING CLAUSES" on page 394 and is less than 2 pages long in total. It will also be necessary to fill in references made to "Appendix A" which is an additional 4 pages (397-401).

It's not surprising to me that both you and the other poster couldn't figure this out -- it's very easy to miss a section so small when it's titled similarly to sections like "IV. ORDER: FORBEARANCE FOR BROADBAND INTERNET ACCESS SERVICES" which are mostly discussion. That contains language like:

> Petitioners ask that the Commission reverse, vacate, or withdraw the RIF Remand Order, and request that the Commission initiate a new rulemaking to reclassify BIAS as a Title II service and reinstate the open Internet conduct rules. Collectively, petitioners make several procedural arguments for why the Commission should reconsider the RIF Remand Order. Common Cause et al. and Public Knowledge each assert that procedural deficiencies in the process the Commission used to adopt the RIF Remand Order are cause for reconsideration. Common Cause et al. argue that because the Commission failed to open the record to receive comment on the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, it failed to adequately consider harms of reclassifying BIAS as a Title I service on public safety, pole attachments, and the Lifeline program.

Which is clearly not an order - it is a discussion with a goal towards justifying parts of the order.

There are also only 434 pages. Not anywhere close to "693". It would be very rude of me to point out that you might be "unable to read past the table of contents". To the contrary, I understand that it's easy to misinterpret the indexing of the table of contents as pages rather than sections, and I have empathy for someone making that mistake, even if it does demonstrate that someone probably hasn't tried to use the table of contents to actually read the document.

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#572
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kindly read or listen to any long-form work by Sarah Kendzior. This is the first I've heard of her. So, just did a Google search on her: She has written a lot of stories for the "news" on a lot of subjects. Maybe ~10% of the stories are about Trump. There were some lists of story titles with URLs, but the URLs didn't point to the stories -- apparently were old and now broken . Her stories on Trump I could find didn…

If you'd actually read her long-form work (specifically, her books Hiding In Plain Sight and They Knew)... Humor her for the length of those, then see how you feel. Her thesis is that "Russiagate" wasn't cooked up; that Trump is, in fact, simply an agent of a class of wealthy oligarchs who don't have loyalty to anything but their own money; that people are drawn to him because their correct instincts about the dysfun…

> Her thesis is that "Russiagate" wasn't cooked up;

...

> weird to disagree with an argument you don't even understand.

To me, from all I have seen, the "cooked up" part was real and well documented. If not cooked up, then some of the media did a really big trick on me, after trying at first to do the big trick of trying to convince me that Russia Gate was real. Peeing in the bed with women in a Moscow hotel??? Naw.

> in a way that is identical to the way autocratic, kleptomanic strongmem have been put into power in the past in other countries.

Hmm .... Tough to take that very seriously when I disagree with the not cooked up assumption. But, interesting, fits some of what is easy to see about Trump: He is a strong personality. He is rich and powerful. He is not, "leading from behind", waiting until the polls says he should take action X but, instead, looking at X well in advance and making decisions then -- so, e.g., he is not merely representing the voters but is charging in some directions he likes and, if not a nuts strongman, competently thinks will be good for the US and that voters will like.

It's a judgment each US citizen has to make: Is he nuts???? For an answer, that's part of why I watched some of his TV series The Apprentice.

From some that's easy to see about him, even if he is nuts, he works hard to appear not to be and, instead, to take actions to appear to be sympathetic, empathetic, generous, etc. with people in need. E.g., in The Apprentice he flew the Rhodes Scholar candidate down to Pennsylvania for a family funeral. That said, maybe working for him could be tough, need 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, and a quart of sweat an hour.

And as voters, we can see that we have to be careful, i.e., once a POTUS is in office, super tough to get him out, no matter what the heck he does.

But for Trump, we do have 4 years of his time as POTUS. There I didn't see a nut case. It looked like in business he was a darned good CEO and as POTUS was the same as it can be appropriate for a POTUS instead of a CEO to be.

We will see in November and, then, likely again, starting in 2025.

Thanks for the book review: "autocratic, kleptomanic strongmem"??? Naw.... Watched him for 4 years, Naw.

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re fundamentally misunderstanding what is going on. There are a majority number of votes to support popular legislation. These bills are simply not brought to a vote BY THE MAJORITY PARTY due to internal majority party politics. Nothing in your facile proposal would remedy this. What would fix the problem would be change to the rules so that simple majority could bring legislation to a vote . This does not exist…

I'm well aware of the procedural votes that occur before something goes before the entire House or Senate...which serve no other practical purpose than to slow things down. It should not be possible under any circumstances for a single vote -- in an instance where that vote would not make or break a tie among the majority -- to doom a bill that a majority of the caucus supports. Glares in the direction of the Freedom…

If I had my way I’d create a unicameral legislature with a combination of multimember districts and at-large party list seats in the vein of Germany’s Bundestag.

On a slightly more reasonable note, I’d be happy with just eliminating all state senates nationwide, similar to Nebraska.

Bicameralism is bullshit

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes that is just the "FCC FACT SHEET" as it says in the top title of the document. It is not the actual rule/action. It is also the exact same link that the poster just above me already gave. No. The first page is the "fact sheet." The other 693 pages is the rule-making document. Or are you unable to read past the first line of the first page?

> No. The first page is the "fact sheet." The other 693 pages is the rule-making document. You are incredibly rude for someone who is also incredibly wrong . It is strange that whenever we are one of those, we all seem far more likely to be the other as well. Only the last two pages before the appendix is "the rule-making document", and the 4 pages of appendix A - just six pages in total. The rest is a dialogue on wh…

>You are incredibly rude for someone who is also incredibly wrong. It is strange that whenever we are one of those, we all seem far more likely to be the other as well.

Yep. That's me. I smell bad and like jazz too.

The order is reclassifying ISPs (or as named in the document, Broadband Internet Access Services -- BIAS) under Title II of the FCC Act of 1934 (as amended repeatedly over the past 90 years). I believe the below is the pointy end of the stick and the first sentence (set apart for specific folks -- see below) is, in fact, the order.

Since I'm already rude, obnoxious and wrong, I'll wonder aloud at folks' reading comprehension skills as well.

Part III (section 25) states:

   We reinstate the telecommunications service    
   classification of BIAS under Title II of the
   Act.

   Reclassification will enhance the Commission’s 
   ability to ensure Internet openness, defend national
   security, promote cybersecurity, safeguard public safety, 
   monitor network resiliency and reliability,
   protect consumer privacy and data security, support 
   consumer access to BIAS, and improve disability
   access. We find that classification of BIAS as a 
   telecommunications service represents the best reading
   of the text of the Act in light of how the service is 
   offered and perceived today, as well as the factual and
   technical realities of how BIAS functions. Classifying 
   BIAS as a telecommunications service also accords with 
   Commission and court precedent and is fully and 
   sufficiently justified under the Commission’s 
   longstanding authority and responsibility to classify 
   services subject to the Commission’s jurisdiction, as 
   necessary. We also ensure that consumers receive the same    
   protections when using fixed and mobile BIAS by 
   reclassifying mobile BIAS as a commercial mobile service.

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#575
post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not needed, the fcc doesnt have the authority, keeping the government away from internet is a good thing

Ah yes, keeping the US government away from the thing they created in the first place. That's seems workable, sure.

The internet was explicitly privatized and deregulated in 1995 by the Clinton Administration.

It has flourished under private sector control without net neutrality. A 30 year track record of success, yet people are still clambering to have it back under government control.

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some libertarian dream the FCC lacks authority...

The American libertarian dream confuses me because unlike libertarians abroad (where it's a synonym with "anarchist") they stop with political authority, and seem to have no issue with corporate authority. The ISP business in the USA is very clearly an oligopoly with the top players colluding. Not sure how a rugged individual is supposed to fight back against that.

Fighting back against powerful corporations does happen, though usually over long time scales.

Plenty of the most powerful corporations a few generations ago are weak or nonexistent today. Their abuses of power, though problematic, are typically less egregious than governmental abuses of power.

Even at an individual level, I can simply withdraw my support by not buying their products or services.

Whereas fighting the government - or even trying to withdraw support - typically leads to imprisonment or death.

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#577
post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Personally I believe people should have total freedom to change governments, but I'm a utopian thinker so /shrug though I wonder in such a world whether you'd feel the same way. "Too Like the Lightning" explored this if you enjoy sci-fi. I'm hung up on something though - in this specific subject, there's been massive market capture in the USA by one to four ISPs, depending on region. For most of rural am…

I dont there's anything inherently different about Internet delivery. There's some last mile problems and some services no market exists because the cost would be higher than people are willing to pay. Internet service is expensive and maybe the high fixed cost makes it so only a few people can deliver and they can charge monopoly prices. There are also regulations that could make this expensive to provide too But yo…

>But you can't just look at final price with a lower price being good. If some municipal service costs half the price but it costs taxpayers the other half, is that better?

Where, exactly, is that happening?

As I understand it, the vast majority of taxpayer monies for broadband doesn't go to municipally owned networks, but rather to private ISPs. And that's been the case for decades.

And those monies are given with a pinky-swear that this time, we'll actually spend the money on expanding broadband to under-served areas, with a similar likelihood that will happen as the last four or five times taxpayer monies were given to those folks.

Meanwhile, actual municipal broadband[0][1] pays for itself by charging multiple ISPs to access their last mile -- paying for the infrastructure and introducing (often for the first time) competition into the market.

What's more, nearly a third of states have laws[2] blocking/hindering municipal broadband. Most of which are related to model legislation promulgated by groups like ALEC[3]. Many of the artificial roadblocks put up by such laws make municipal broadband (both implicitly and explicitly[4]) more expensive than private broadband

[0] https://broadbandnow.com/municipal-providers

[1] https://www.theverge.com/23763482/municipal-broadband-biden-...

[2] https://broadbandnow.com/report/municipal-broadband-roadbloc...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_...

[4] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/01/virginia-broadba...

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#578
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with this viewpoint seem to forget that Congress often granted these agencies these powers, or at least, were vague enough in their definition to allow it to plausibly happen. It's also worth noting that many of the people who demand that Congress do these things instead of bureaucrats are saying that in bad faith; that is, they don't want it done at all and know Congress can't possibly come to an agreement on…

The supreme court has been very clear that congress can't delegate lawmaking to executive agencies. So no, I haven't forgotten that at all. As for it being a feature, you're right - I think the vast majority of legislating should be done at the state and local level. This isn't a secret, it was covered in the Federalist Papers in the 18th century. What's your argument in favor of federalizing all aspects of law in a…

> The supreme court has been very clear that congress can't delegate lawmaking to executive agencies. So no, I haven't forgotten that at all.

Well, they do it all the time. FCC, OSHA, EPA... Try taking the approach that you shouldn't have your FCC license (amateur radio, broadcasting, whatever) to the courts because these bureaucrats made up the whole thing. You won't get very far.

> What's your argument in favor of federalizing all aspects of law in a large and heterogenous country?

My argument is that no one actually believes in not federalizing things. Not unless it fits their agenda. See the Comstock Act, for example.

> Why does the federal government need to force Texas to ban non-competes when Texas has decided not to do so but California has?

They need to ban non-competes because they're horrifically abusive of workers and like most things, the corporate class keeps pushing until someone pushes back. Would you like that "someone" to be the FTC through a legal process, or an angry mob tearing people apart? Mobs don't particularly care much about "states' rights" or the writings of a bunch of slave owners who lived before the creation of germ theory, after all.

> What if the next government decides to force California to un-ban non-competes with a new rule issued by Executive Order? Do you not see why this is an unworkable and brittle approach?

What if the next Congress decides the opposite of the current one? What if a future SCOTUS bench decides to contradict a past ruling? What's your point?

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. The first page is the "fact sheet." The other 693 pages is the rule-making document. You are incredibly rude for someone who is also incredibly wrong . It is strange that whenever we are one of those, we all seem far more likely to be the other as well. Only the last two pages before the appendix is "the rule-making document", and the 4 pages of appendix A - just six pages in total. The rest is a dialogue on wh…

>You are incredibly rude for someone who is also incredibly wrong. It is strange that whenever we are one of those, we all seem far more likely to be the other as well. Yep. That's me. I smell bad and like jazz too. The order is reclassifying ISPs (or as named in the document, Broadband Internet Access Services -- BIAS) under Title II of the FCC Act of 1934 (as amended repeatedly over the past 90 years). I believe th…

Yes that section tells the audience what their new rules are doing, why they are doing it, and justification for how they’re allowed to do it. From your own quote choice:

> Classifying BIAS as a telecommunications service also accords with Commission and court precedent and is fully and sufficiently justified under the Commission’s longstanding authority and responsibility to classify services subject to the Commission’s jurisdiction, as necessary.

This is clearly discussion about the rules in the section X and Appendix A. It’s clearly not an actual rule itself.

The actual rule relevant to your quote is the new Section 8.3 that they are adding to Part 20 of Title 47.

The current part 20 is here: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-B...

The new part 20 is given on page 398 of the document that you linked. This new section 8.3 is the actual action they take to specifically classify BIAS as a Title II telecommunications service.

> the first sentence is, in fact, the order.

No, it's a more-easily accessible description of the order in something approaching plain English. The new Section 8.3 in Appendix A is the "pointy end of the stick" of the Title II order, to use your terminology. The rest of the document is describing these changes (section X and Appendix A) in more plain English.

The actual order for what you quoted is on page 394:

> 693. Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED, pursuant to the authority contained in sections 1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 13, 201, 202, 206, 207, 208, 209, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 230, 251, 254, 256, 257, 301, 303, 304, 307, 309, 310, 312, 316, 332, 403, 501, 503, and 602 of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, and section 706 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, as amended, 47 U.S.C §§ 151, 152, 153, 154(i)-(j), 160, 163, 201, 202, 206, 207, 208, 209, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 230, 251, 254, 256, 257, 301, 303, 304, 307, 309, 310, 312, 316, 332, 403, 501, 503, 522, and 1302, that this Declaratory Ruling, Order, Report and Order, and Order on Reconsideration IS ADOPTED and that Parts 8 and 20 of the Commission’s Rules, 47 CFR Parts 8, 20, ARE AMENDED as set forth in Appendix A.

Specifically, the last little part:

> that Parts 8 and 20 of the Commission’s Rules, 47 CFR Parts 8, 20, ARE AMENDED as set forth in Appendix A.

That is the new rule. It is an actual change to Title 47. The rule is not what you quoted. What you quoted is not part of of any CFR. What you quoted is not federal code. Only Section X and Appendix A make actual changes to the "Code of Federal Regulations".

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are incredibly rude for someone who is also incredibly wrong. It is strange that whenever we are one of those, we all seem far more likely to be the other as well. Yep. That's me. I smell bad and like jazz too. The order is reclassifying ISPs (or as named in the document, Broadband Internet Access Services -- BIAS) under Title II of the FCC Act of 1934 (as amended repeatedly over the past 90 years). I believe th…

Yes that section tells the audience what their new rules are doing, why they are doing it, and justification for how they’re allowed to do it. From your own quote choice: > Classifying BIAS as a telecommunications service also accords with Commission and court precedent and is fully and sufficiently justified under the Commission’s longstanding authority and responsibility to classify services subject to the Commissi…

No. The "Rules" that apply are Title II of the FCC Act of 1934. The change being that ISPs are now regulated under Title II rather than Title I.

That's it. That's the rule change. Full stop.

If you'd like to understand what's different between Title I and Title II, I suggest checking out the law in question.

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