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AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

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61–70 of 83 posts

Re: AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

#61
It seems hard for people to take a nuanced approach that GPT-4 level models have in the present the potential to improve many people's lives and corporations' bottom lines while still being cautiously pessimists on the next generation of models.

GPT-4, Claude 3 & Co. are simply too useful for certain coding tasks or to review a contract. Obviously, you need to understand you're dealing with a probabilistic being, and for many tasks it isn't the correct tool, but I use ChatGPT ~5 a day and the $20 are super well spent. Now, there's an ocean apart of me liking to use ChatGPT and the promises from Silicon Valley and Microsoft.

Re: AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

#62
IMO it's not an entirely unreasonable take.

It seems some companies adopting GenAI at this stage are doing so, at least in part, because they want to believe (that they can replace workers), rather than out of any sober analysis of what it can actually do. Maybe there's an element of FOMO too, and companies wanting to use GenAI because they hear everyone talking about it.

No doubt LLMs will continue to improve, but what remains to be seen is if there will be a direct path from LLMs to AGI (which is where the real value gets unlocked), or if we'll just continue to see quantitative improvement in benchmark scores, hallucination reduction, etc, but not much qualitative change in the types of task they are capable of.

I do think that AGI is inevitable, maybe not even that far off (but certainly not next 5 years, probably not next 10 years *), but there's a lot missing from LLMs to get there, and it seems that at least one critical piece, online learning, may require a different approach.

* Note that it's already been 7 years since the transformer paper came out, and all we've really seen since then is a bunch of engineering work in making them more efficient and how best to train them. We haven't yet seen any advances in "cognitive architecture", or even any widespread recognition that there is a need to do so. If all people are doing for the foreseeable future is building pre-trained LLMs, then that is all we will get.

Re: AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just kinda sad at how cynical so many of us have become. I mean, I see tons of comments "But it hallucinates!!!!!" Yeah, no shit. At the same time, you're having a perfectly grammatically correct, natural, sensical conversation with a computer . Just a couple years ago that was purely the realm of Star Trek.

The only difference between AI hallucination and a regular person misremembering is that sometimes the person will communicate the fact that they're unsure. It's not like the outcome is any different either - if you blindly trust, you've got the same problem.

> The only difference between AI hallucination and a regular person misremembering is that sometimes the person will communicate the fact that they're unsure. It's not like the outcome is any different either - if you blindly trust, you've got the same problem.

There's a few key differences. One being, if we compose a system with the output of "regular person", and "regular person" makes a mistake, they can be held accountable.

Re: AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

#64
post #20
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, chatbots have completely changed the way I program, and I'm not a "self-mythologizing executive and founder in Silicon Valley", also it's not only very useful but also entertaining, quite a lot of fun creating stuff with my friends using Suno or text-to-image models.

I’ve yet to find its programming help useful. ChatGPT and Copilot routinely offer bad or outright incorrect advice.

I think a big problem looming on the horizon for using llms to help with code is the same "confidently wrong" tone as when they're used as a general search engine. I've seen people blindly follow what they were being told by the llm when, if you'd just read it, it was obviously wrong code (or in one case a json config file). It reminds me of the copy/paste problem from stackoverflow except there's no voting or feedback from others that signify a more correct answer.

LLMs sound so sure of themselves and people think "well i'm dealign with the most advanced technology ever so it must be right...".

On the implementation side of things, it's hard for me to get the non-deterministic aspect of llms right in my head. I put an LLM and RAG system in prod with a team and went through rounds of the usual testing. 99 times it passed but on test 100 it would fail, so you'd adjust the system prompt. Then it'd pass 500 times and fail at 501. Adjust the system prompt, then it would pass 9 times and fail at 10. That system went to production but there's the low level worry in my mind, when is it going to fail to give the correct output? The fact that you can never guarantee the output of an LLM from a given input severely limits where they should be used IMO. I don't think it's wise to have the output of an LLM be the input to another program, there's no functional relationship between domain and range with an LLM.

That problem is usually met with "well, a human would make the same mistake.." but the reason computers exist is to do long, tedious, lists of tasks/instructions very fast that humans get wrong. Simulating a human, and all those imperfections, with digital logic seems contradictory to me.

edit: Also, just want to point out that the "testing" mentioned in my post was all manually done by humans. You can't automate testing the response of an llm unless you use another model to grade the response as correct or not but then you're right back to not being able to trust that the grader will always act consistently.

Re: AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

#65
post #10

That's a lot of words from someone who doesn't seem to have tried using these tools yet? The Hype is smoke and mirrors, but there are tons of real use cases where things were MUCH easier than before. Things like text to speech or image recognition previously required a team of 10 ML engineers a couple of years to build now take a weekend. It's smoke and mirrors to the "business world" because none of these translate…

It’s not on average being developed as a product with the affordances one expects from a product: save and restore state, seamlessly maintain and modify a working set of artifacts, reset possibly corrupt cached state. I think everyone who saw ChatGPT and thought something like “there’s a good website for instruct transformers? they’re going to have a zillion users” was acknowledging a milestone: if a tech demo is eno…

Part of the core problem of our whole economic setup is the widening gap between "where money comes from" and "what do things do?". The VC hype machine makes this gap so large that it can disrupt attempts to design a specific functional requirement. It's way, way, waaaayyy more important (in the near term, anyway) to get the attention of Mr. Moneybags versus making a self-assembling AI wiring diagram. Especially when these systems are so resource hungry - that's a lot of money up front.

We see a flavor of this in the defense industry, where the users of the Product have a . . a whole ecosystem of fusspots[0] . . between them and the money. Say, for example, you get a gigantic requirements document. It might say "You will make the Product System but you must do the work according to Process X, Process Y, Process Z, and any related Process [X.1.b through X.6.z, Z.1 through Z.921, etc]". Then, when you show you have these Processes/Certificates, you get a pile of money. Thing is, it could be decades - or never - before the Product ever sees anything like a user. Every time someone refreshes the Giant Requirements Document, more money gets paid. The actual transaction taking place is Paperwork for Money - so therefore, the red tape is what's valued. Sometimes - almost by accident - a product comes out from this, but very often it doesn't[1], and the whole machine just keeps cranking on.

[0] I am being really nice here, but yeah, without trying to be nice . . there's a TON of corruption, and despite what the NAFO fanboys say, a LOT of procurement officers have their corner offices already picked out at LockBoNorthRay. It's an absolutely widespread practice - every company I've ever been with has BRAGGED about hiring on Procurement Officer X or Y from the latest bagged contract.

[1] Sometimes a Product comes out completely FUBARed[a] and then the techs and engineers have to figure out a way to make it fight. It would all be a hilarious TV show, but in real life all I can see are the dead airmen and sailors that'll be stuck inside when push comes to shove. Well, "shoving" someone other than five Arab teenagers playing with fireworks in an RV, you can fight those guys with a Garfield body pillow and some body odor..

[1.a] But within that ever-shifting requirements spec!

Re: AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech industry is guilty of fanning the flames of hype to get funding. A lot of people are rightly annoyed over some of the more outlandish claims that were made over the past 1-2 years.

Such as what? I think this is like a massive invention and presages massive changes in the world at least on the decades-timescale. Big claims are warranted.

Come on man I'm not going to go through countless blogposts from a year ago and then argue with you about them if they were overhyping AI or not. But if you recall the discussion a year ago was apocalyptic, both for the human race and software engineering jobs.

Re: AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

#67
post #10

That's a lot of words from someone who doesn't seem to have tried using these tools yet? The Hype is smoke and mirrors, but there are tons of real use cases where things were MUCH easier than before. Things like text to speech or image recognition previously required a team of 10 ML engineers a couple of years to build now take a weekend. It's smoke and mirrors to the "business world" because none of these translate…

Whether you agree with the article or not, if indeed AI is going to have a future it must eventually produce something of value to the "business world".

Re: AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

#68

This article, like so many AI hit pieces, fails to make any credible claim against AI. This one spent far too long propping up a tenuous analogy to smoke and mirrors. Is current-gen AI valuable? Obviously. Look at how many people say as much and willingly pay for the services. Is current-gen AI worth the hype? No, not really. Current models are impressive but highly limited, as any user can attest (and as any hater w…

Future models are world-changing, and we have every reason to believe models will continue to scale in this way.

So how do you know this exactly?

What the naysayers always miss is exponential growth. They don’t look towards the future.

This is quite a pat response. There are plenty of critics within the AI/ML field of the unbounded growth hypothesis that you are effectively fronting here. I don't think you really believe that they "don't look towards the future", or that they aren't aware of the concept of exponential growth.

I'd be interested in a cohesive response to their arguments. But in the above post at least, I'm not seeing one.

Re: AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

#69
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day, there will always be people making sweeping generalizations counter-positioning themselves against the hype in order to drive engagement. There are plenty of companies capitalizing on the AI hype cycle which won't manage to build durable businesses, but there are also plenty of use cases where AI is meaningfully accelerating people's workflows. Situations where it's effort-intensive to create s…

> in order to drive engagement This is where your comment went off the rails. Is it possible the author simply disagrees with you? Or is the future of AI so clear that the only reason a person could disagree is because they're driving engagement?

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Re: AI Is Smoke and Mirrors

#70

This article, like so many AI hit pieces, fails to make any credible claim against AI. This one spent far too long propping up a tenuous analogy to smoke and mirrors. Is current-gen AI valuable? Obviously. Look at how many people say as much and willingly pay for the services. Is current-gen AI worth the hype? No, not really. Current models are impressive but highly limited, as any user can attest (and as any hater w…

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