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Mental health in software engineering

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Re: Mental health in software engineering

#421

Post by CatWChainsaw »

sandworm101 wrote: post #212
chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

This isn't one size fits all. Your solution works in some circumstances and taking a break works in others.

During undergrad, I had a lot of anxiety over my future career prospects, and I recognized that the best outlet for the excess "energy" was schoolwork that would keep my mind busy. So doubling down helped there.

On the other hand, my team at work just got done a month-long process that involved training another team from the ground up, while their supervisor was traveling for work, four of the five we were training were fresh out of undergrad and speedrunning every rookie mistake possible, and the fifth was a middle-aged man who thought he knew more than he did, and his constant rebuffing of our attempts to impart institutional knowledge made this process harder for everyone. Both of my immediate supervisors had to take a couple days off during this mess to decompress. Backing off was the correct response there.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#422

Post by Viliam1234 »

rramadass wrote: post #337
dboreham wrote: post #153

I've come to believe that there's something about the practice of software development that causes , or can cause mental illness. I've seen a few colleagues over the decades have some very serious issues. It's really quite a serious problem in our industry, imho.

> there's something about the practice of software development that causes, or can cause mental illness. I think i have figured this out :-) It is a combination of multiple factors; the major ones are listed below (note that the articles linked to are not specific to software developers but the factors in the studies can be extrapolated); 1) Biology - We Humans are evolved for Activity and Motion. Long periods of pro…

> Software Development Management/Processes/Methodologies have devolved into stimulating "constant chronic stress" as opposed to "episodic acute stress".

Yep, exactly this. It is not really the stress that I hate, but rather the fact that it never ends. A bit of stress is okay, if you can take a break afterwards and relax. But what follows after the end of a sprint is another sprint. That metaphor itself is insane... have you ever seen an actual sprinter start running a new sprint immediately after the end of a previous one?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#423

Post by kunley »

jahewson wrote: post #295
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, most companies and projects fail completely. In my 25ish year career I can only think of a handful of lines of code that I've written that are still in production (or that I think might still be in production) and only a few employers that still exist. When you pan out far enough it all seems a bit silly.

But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders.

Pleasing shareholders is overrated

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#424

Post by ornornor »

> We go to the doctor for a physical ailment; why should our mental health be any different?

Most health insurance system do seem to think there is a difference. Just like teeth seem to be luxury bones and eyesight is kinda optional.

Why aren’t all these things first class in most health systems? Coverage is usually pretty decent for physicians, but if you have a problem with your mind (or teeth, or eyes) then good luck here is a fraction of what the therapy costs and don’t bother us with it again.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#425

Post by rramadass »

Viliam1234 wrote: post #422
rramadass wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's something about the practice of software development that causes, or can cause mental illness. I think i have figured this out :-) It is a combination of multiple factors; the major ones are listed below (note that the articles linked to are not specific to software developers but the factors in the studies can be extrapolated); 1) Biology - We Humans are evolved for Activity and Motion. Long periods of pro…

> Software Development Management/Processes/Methodologies have devolved into stimulating "constant chronic stress" as opposed to "episodic acute stress". Yep, exactly this. It is not really the stress that I hate, but rather the fact that it never ends. A bit of stress is okay, if you can take a break afterwards and relax. But what follows after the end of a sprint is another sprint. That metaphor itself is insane...…

While "Stress at Work" is inevitable; its frequency, duration and intensity have increased exponentially in the Software Development Industry. They have forgotten that we are "Biological Organisms" first (with all its natural limitations) and "Software Developers" last. Instead of devising systems/methodologies/processes for "Emotional Humans" everything is being tailored towards a "Rational Automaton" which is plainly wrong. In my own career starting from early 90's i have seen/studied how this change in environment has affected me personally for the worse (notwithstanding the effects of ageing) and am willing to bet that it is the case in general.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#426

Post by sandspar »

adamc wrote: post #172
PodgieTar wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Software Engineering attracts neurodivergent people. I am an adhd software engineer, and know a disproportionate amount of adhd software engineers. I think that level of executive dysfunction and “catchup” is problematic

I have a hypothesis about that, based on prior battles with depression. A characteristic of many people who struggle with depression is revisiting things over and over in your mind, looking for what is often a non-existent solution. This is a very, very useful trait in a software engineer. It helps us think of solutions to hard problems, to see options that are not initially obvious. But it also enables mental illnes…

Where else is that mental revisiting useful? I'm very much in love with someone who has that trait and is a successful software developer. They say they want to get out of the industry in a few years. I want to know other places they can work.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#427

Post by jjav »

UncleMeat wrote: post #418
jjav wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software engineering is not a low-status position Pay is not status. Software currently pays quite well, but in most companies today a developer is at the very bottom of the status curve. Developers are no longer allowed any say in what to build or how to build it, they are micromanaged by product managers and program managers and team managers and required to give daily status reports ("agile"). (I say "used to" b…

You are woefully misinformed if you think that doctors have a significant say in their day to day work. My sister is in medicine. Her entire day, down to each 30 minute block, is prescheduled for her. Often, she is forced to see multiple patients at once to increase revenues. The services that she is allowed to provide are governed by a completely separate insurance company. Strict metrics are tracked about the outco…

> You are woefully misinformed if you think that doctors have a significant say in their day to day work.

But then, I did not say that.

I said doctors get more respect as they gain experience, which is true.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#428

Post by shiroiushi »

tstrimple wrote: post #383
shiroiushi wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has not been my experience at all. I do see this in the management layers, even with team leads, but the typical IC engineer does NOT spend any significant time talking with stakeholders, support, or users. They do have to work with other devs, but even that is frequently over chat, and not as much in-person, though it depends on the particular people and the company culture. Yes, you really can go into a tech c…

Are these the engineers who exert no control over their environments and just sit back and bitterly complain while taking no steps to resolve the issues? Those engineers who complain about "stupid management decisions" yet have made no real effort to influence the people and processes which led to those decisions? Sure. You can be a developer and avoid talking to humans as much as possible. You're just not going to b…

Maybe you worked in some small companies or something where ICs can actually talk to customers, but when you're working in a 100,000 person company, that simply isn't something you do. If you go over your managers' head, they tend to get very angry, and that's just within the company, to say nothing about unsolicited contacts with customers from someone in a position that isn't customer-facing.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#429

Post by [deleted] »

sandworm101 wrote: post #212
chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

[deleted]

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#430

Post by crossroadsguy »

neilv wrote: post #204
surfingdino wrote: post #27

I used to be in (moderate) awe of young college drop-out CEOs. Then I worked for a couple of them. Now I refuse to work for startups that have 20-somethings at the top, because they really do not know how to manage or lead. They are motivated by fear of failure and having accomplished nothing so far they treat others like garbage. Avoid.

I suspect that there's no good reason that a 25 year-old can't be a great startup CEO. I think one key tricky part is that -- even if the 25yo starts with being all-around smart, and unusually aware&humble, yet nevertheless tackling something big -- is that it's very hard to know when they should listen to team/advisors (and which), vs. when they should do a contrary thing that they think is the smart thing. Maybe th…

There are too many good reasons that 25 year olds can't be a good startup CEO. One of them is complete lack of experience and almost complete lack of knowledge on how fatigue, stress, anxiety (or health issues in general) etc affect people. Because until 25 these doesn't even resigner on you or your body in most cases.

But yes, if you meant a "good" start CEO as in "good for the startup" then yeah I would say what you said is possible or likely.

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