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Mental health in software engineering

vadimkravcenko.com

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Re: Mental health in software engineering

#171

Post by epiccoleman »

JohnMakin wrote: post #162
datadrivenangel wrote: post #5

"An example of uncertainty in business is when your CEO tells you they promised a feature to your biggest client and it needs to be built ASAP as highest priority, so all hands on deck. Then a day later they tell you another feature, completely contradictory to the first one, needs to be built as well and is also highest priority. When you tell them they both can't be highest priority, the answer is: make it happen."…

One of the strongest skills as a business facing developer is being able to say no.

https://grugbrain.dev/#grug-on-saying-no

> best weapon against complexity spirit demon is magic word: "no"

> "no, grug not build that feature"

> "no, grug not build that abstraction"

> "no, grug not put water on body every day or drink less black think juice you stop repeat ask now"

> note, this good engineering advice but bad career advice: "yes" is magic word for more shiney rock and put in charge of large tribe of developer

> is ok: how many shiney rock grug really need anyway?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#172

Post by adamc »

PodgieTar wrote: post #160
dboreham wrote: post #153

I've come to believe that there's something about the practice of software development that causes , or can cause mental illness. I've seen a few colleagues over the decades have some very serious issues. It's really quite a serious problem in our industry, imho.

I think Software Engineering attracts neurodivergent people. I am an adhd software engineer, and know a disproportionate amount of adhd software engineers. I think that level of executive dysfunction and “catchup” is problematic

I have a hypothesis about that, based on prior battles with depression. A characteristic of many people who struggle with depression is revisiting things over and over in your mind, looking for what is often a non-existent solution. This is a very, very useful trait in a software engineer. It helps us think of solutions to hard problems, to see options that are not initially obvious.

But it also enables mental illness when you encounter problems that cannot be solved that way -- for me, it was divorce. But life is full of intractable problems.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#173

Post by calvinmorrison »

barbariangrunge wrote: post #168
dboreham wrote: post #153

I've come to believe that there's something about the practice of software development that causes , or can cause mental illness. I've seen a few colleagues over the decades have some very serious issues. It's really quite a serious problem in our industry, imho.

You need wins to feel good. Or, projects with finish lines. But many projects go on year after year with no finish lines, ever, unless you or the company runs out of juice, or you move to a different company to do the same thing. In web dev, launch day is the closest you get, but it’s not a real finish line. Hitting kpi targets sort of counts, but it’s not psychologically satisfying like finishing a table or a piece…

Only because programmers use up thier artistic juices at work. Plenty of my friends who are payroll or work in warehouses do not have any mental investment into work and use that energy outside of work to write, quilt, or do stimulating activities of thier own choice. For me after work I put on Judge Judy and let my brain rot

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#175

Post by lurking15 »

jampekka wrote: post #129
zero-sharp wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I do someting like this quite a bit. If I deem it's easier to do it myself than to instruct or supervise someone else doing it, I do it myself. This is quite often the case. I don't see how doing it the harder way would somehow help with not burning out. You will most likely always be more efficient than the people who are less senior/just starting out. So then: when do you decide it's worth it to help those less se…

If it's not something urgent or someting that will not blow up on my face, I try to delegate. And delegation does work fine for many cases. I also do like to help, especially in form of pair programming or similar hands-on. There are some that don't seem to like this kind of help though. A major problem I encounter is that people I delegate to don't say when they don't understand something or don't reach out early en…

> A major problem I encounter is that people I delegate to don't say when they don't understand something or don't reach out early enough when they get stuck. I always say that come to ask if you get stuck on something for more than a half a day or so. Unfortunately most people don't even when I ask them to.

I've definitely done this before, and in retrospect, having moved on to other roles, it's obvious to me now that the workplace & overall company was actually the problem. People reach out early when they're engaged and feel comfortable.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#176

Post by norir »

adamc wrote: post #172
PodgieTar wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Software Engineering attracts neurodivergent people. I am an adhd software engineer, and know a disproportionate amount of adhd software engineers. I think that level of executive dysfunction and “catchup” is problematic

I have a hypothesis about that, based on prior battles with depression. A characteristic of many people who struggle with depression is revisiting things over and over in your mind, looking for what is often a non-existent solution. This is a very, very useful trait in a software engineer. It helps us think of solutions to hard problems, to see options that are not initially obvious. But it also enables mental illnes…

Yes and to add to this, I think also the longer you stay in the industry, the more you realize that the industry itself has intractable problems (at least on the scale at which you can effect change). The tension is whether or not to accept those problems or leave the industry.

Unfortunately, I also think that many of the problems are both simultaneously solvable and intractable at the same time, which is particularly crazy making if one is so inclined.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#177

Post by chollida1 »

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is.

All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are.

All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming your free time if you don't set boundaries, all have deadlines that lead to stress.

>You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.”

This hurt me to read on behalf of the OP.

I'm now 20 years into my career and never once have I come across this attitude. People take sick days all the time for mental health. I feel terribly for this person that they felt like they couldn't but this is far and away the exception rather than the rule.

Has any company come out against mental health in the past 20 years?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#178

Post by sh_hike »

adamc wrote: post #172
PodgieTar wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Software Engineering attracts neurodivergent people. I am an adhd software engineer, and know a disproportionate amount of adhd software engineers. I think that level of executive dysfunction and “catchup” is problematic

I have a hypothesis about that, based on prior battles with depression. A characteristic of many people who struggle with depression is revisiting things over and over in your mind, looking for what is often a non-existent solution. This is a very, very useful trait in a software engineer. It helps us think of solutions to hard problems, to see options that are not initially obvious. But it also enables mental illnes…

+1 I spent most of my childhood and teenage years feeling depressed due to traumatic experiences. I failed at mostly everything until I started programming. I took some mushrooms last year that helped me stop this constant cycle of repeating thoughts.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#179

Post by slily »

lenerdenator wrote: post #33
surfingdino wrote: post #27

I used to be in (moderate) awe of young college drop-out CEOs. Then I worked for a couple of them. Now I refuse to work for startups that have 20-somethings at the top, because they really do not know how to manage or lead. They are motivated by fear of failure and having accomplished nothing so far they treat others like garbage. Avoid.

The phenomenon of showing up at Stanford and telling some 21-year-old that he's Jesus Christ and that you're going to give him millions of dollars is a wen on the American business culture matched only by corporate raiding. It's the nerd version of college football/basketball recruiting.

Are you serious? That culture is why America still has high innovation while other Western and "culturally Western" countries that do not are largely stagnant. I'm amazed at how often I see people (largely Americans I'm guessing) criticize the very things that make their country a world superpower.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#180

Post by badpun »

mr_mitm wrote: post #166
badpun wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, you don't generally get "sick days" - you're entitled to stay at home or in hospital for as long as it takes for you to get better (even for years, if necessary). In the meantime, your salary is paid by the state, so you're not an unproductive burden for your employer. At least that's how it works in Poland.

True, but that also means you cannot take a day off because you're not feeling it. You need at a doctor to attest that you're physically incapable of working. And in Germany, the employer has the right to demand a doctor's note from day one.

You can take a day off when you're not feeling it and don't want to go to the doctor, but it will be subtracted from your paid vacations. You can do that for up to four days a year. It's not that much different than the sick days in the US, which are often bundled together with vacation days into PTO (Paid Time Off).
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