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Mental health in software engineering

vadimkravcenko.com

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Re: Mental health in software engineering

#281

Post by earthling8118 »

nox101 wrote: post #280
StillBored wrote: post #267

In almost 30 years of software engineering, I came to the conclusion years ago that most deadlines were entirely arbitrary. The business isn't going to fail if you slip a week, or frequently even six months and if it does its probably not the fault of engineering unless its so dysfunctional as to repeatably blow through its own delivery estimates. Sure there are regulatory deadlines, customer POC or delivery deadline…

It depends on the industry. Video games are still sold at retails stores (Target, Best Buy, ...). Those stores have to coordinate what is going to be on their shelves months in advance (6+)? So you promise your game will be ready and in a package and at their loading dock by November 15th. If you miss the deadline their shelf is empty of product since its spot was reserved for you. Other customer electronics have sim…

You dismiss that these are arbitrary, but I'm not seeing a whole lot in your examples that aren't also arbitrary. Sure, this is how a lot, if not all, companies work. That does nothing to disprove that this is arbitrary at the cost of mental health.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#282

Post by earthling8118 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #273
oooyay wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying now. People do need billets to bridge them to some more higher official responsibility if you want them to grow. That said, I don't think this is a great panacea for mental health days. Generally I use mental health days if I'm overly stressed, burned out, upset, etc... Would you let a troop take a sick day if they were any of those things?

Actually no. We have a procedure. Such people would be reminded of the various mental health services we have. If they don't touch base themselves, someone will touch base with them. That might be a padre or more likely a call from a mental health nurse. Those people would then authorize them staying home, or not, based on medical judgement. We don't allow people to switch off, especially when they might have access…

Quite frankly, this is why I'm glad to no longer be part of such an organization. This is as close as you can toe the line of actually causing harm while still making it look beneficial.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#283

Post by tegiddrone »

I saw Bryan Cantrill's talk on [Intelligence is Not Enough][0] opposing some opinions on AI/ML is gonna do to the industry... but I felt like it touches on some ideas that can relate the topic of mental health as well.

Many software shops/enterprises don't value the necessity of embracing failure and making space for curiosity. That's fine, but then these shops should be strict about using Boring Technology they can just buy support for. If such companies have too much product ambition in the mix, then you need to give devs the ability to be engineers by giving them space to fail, try new things, refactor, rewrite.

We can't do that when the pressure is on to ship in unsustainable ways! Failure is not an option. We spent all that money writing that MVP, what do you mean you need a team to just maintain it? We have features to build!!

Not everyone is competitive enough to work with excellent engineering culture and we trade mental health in for it sometimes.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQfJi7rjuEk

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#284

Post by np- »

Zenzero wrote: post #268
david-gpu wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While it may sound insensitive, software engineering is nowhere near as complex or stressful as many (but not all) medical roles. It is both mentally and physically less taxing As much as I respect your personal experience, I think you make a mistake in assuming that it is universal. Further, you are also making the mistake of invalidating other people's individual experiences based on your perception of what the a…

I hear what you're saying, but I don't feel I said it was universal in the sense that you're describing it. On the whole I would rate the average software engineer as having a less stressful life than the average doctor. I acknowledge that there are outliers and individual experiences that go against the average. That said, I would argue that you underestimate the number of people in medicine who are burnt out. Many…

So… in conclusion, it could be worse. That’s some valuable insight. Obviously somebody out there always has it worse. How can doctors even complain when there exist 3rd world subsistence farmers?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#285

Post by cmrdporcupine »

makk wrote: post #275
StillBored wrote: post #267

In almost 30 years of software engineering, I came to the conclusion years ago that most deadlines were entirely arbitrary. The business isn't going to fail if you slip a week, or frequently even six months and if it does its probably not the fault of engineering unless its so dysfunctional as to repeatably blow through its own delivery estimates. Sure there are regulatory deadlines, customer POC or delivery deadline…

> most deadlines were entirely arbitrary Yes. As are most tasks, in my experience. Looking back on your almost 30 years, what percent of tasks could have been skipped entirely and, in the long run, it wouldn't have mattered? For me, it's easily >50% ... catch me on a grumpy day and I'd say it's closer to 90%.

Honestly, most companies and projects fail completely. In my 25ish year career I can only think of a handful of lines of code that I've written that are still in production (or that I think might still be in production) and only a few employers that still exist. When you pan out far enough it all seems a bit silly.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#286

Post by gaolei8888 »

This is an awesome post. I noticed this for long time back, software engineer some time can be very frustrated emotionally by his work, or his code. I really like this topic becoming a serious one. More than that, I hope somebody can come out some idea to resolve this problem

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#287

Post by upsuper »

onion2k wrote: post #207
tiznow wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird, I've harped on a few of these points in conversations with others (usually when talking about "sexy careers", and why people don't hold coders in the same regard as doctors) but your words made me realize why I'm trying to become a developer. The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Not wholly a function of unmet needs, but address…

The dealing with the machine rather than people is something I'm willing to run with more than anything, right now. Software engineering is an incredibly people-focused career. You will need to be able to work with other devs, stakeholders, support, users.. everyone really. Going into a tech career thinking that it's somewhere you can avoid people is never going to work out well.

This is true, but I only learnt about it after many years into this career, and to be honest I don't enjoy it very much. I still enjoy working with machines more than people.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#288

Post by jjav »

mjr00 wrote: post #215
hayst4ck wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, and professional athletes all experience social reward and/or social contexts to their work. Software engineering is interfacing with an unthinking, unfeeling machine for…

> Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex b…

> Software engineering is not a low-status position

Pay is not status. Software currently pays quite well, but in most companies today a developer is at the very bottom of the status curve. Developers are no longer allowed any say in what to build or how to build it, they are micromanaged by product managers and program managers and team managers and required to give daily status reports ("agile").

(I say "used to" because in the 90s developers were a high status role. You got to make all decisions and execute on them with great independence. Pay was much lower but respect was much higher.)

The other stress factor is that developers get decreasing respect every year they age. This is in contrast with basically every other professional role where experience is highly valued. Nobody wants the rookie heart surgeon, everyone wants the 60 year old who has done it thousands of times. But nobody wants a 60 year old software engineer.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#289

Post by elevatedastalt »

earthling8118 wrote: post #281
nox101 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the industry. Video games are still sold at retails stores (Target, Best Buy, ...). Those stores have to coordinate what is going to be on their shelves months in advance (6+)? So you promise your game will be ready and in a package and at their loading dock by November 15th. If you miss the deadline their shelf is empty of product since its spot was reserved for you. Other customer electronics have sim…

You dismiss that these are arbitrary, but I'm not seeing a whole lot in your examples that aren't also arbitrary. Sure, this is how a lot, if not all, companies work. That does nothing to disprove that this is arbitrary at the cost of mental health.

What is your point?

We are not isolates who just subsist by ourselves. The modern world is a massively complex interconnected and interdependent system and we rely on the glue of capitalism to ensure that everyone still looks out for themselves but makes it all work for the system.

Were the massive chip shortages causing a massive reduction in car availability and increase in prices "arbitrary"?

Was the Suez canal blockage causing weeks of shipping delays "arbitrary"?

If companies promise to pay for a stall at the next expo, but then don't actually make it because they don't ship their products in time, and now the expo loses revenue because they can't fill the stall at the last moment, is that also "arbitrary"?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#290

Post by jexe »

I worked in the Meta NY office for a while, and had a friend living down the block with anxiety, with a prescription to treat it.

Sometime during my tenure, her prescription started becoming unfillable; the pharmacies are only legally allowed to carry a limited quantity to combat substance abuse issues.

What was happening? Turns out the Meta office was staffing up rapidly and taking more floors in the building, and all of the engineers needing anti-anxiety medication started consuming all of the local supply.

This is a serious problem that we do not take seriously. Broadly speaking, startups in particular are aggressive and there's still an air of machismo and bro culture (from which Meta was born) that prevents caring for one another in this way.

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