Mental health in software engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#261

Post by sandworm101 » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 11:38 PM UTC

oooyay wrote: post #250

sandworm101 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

> I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. Are we talking US military here? I think I recognize the pattern you're talking about when you say: > I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I hav…

With young people it isn't a matter of running them tired and bypassing the problem. Most aren't actually mentally ill, rather for the first time in their lives they don't have someone telling them how to live their lives on a daily basis. So they are given structure until they can work that stuff out for themselves. Extra work is often part of that structure. For instance, I know of one 19yo who was basically bored to death at work and hitting the bar every night (not in the US). So his boss put him on the unit "safety committee", which is extra work. He then had to interview people and write a monthly report to be read by the CO, which is very scary for the average 19yo kid at his first unit. That little bit of responsibility, extra work, turned him around real fast. He came to my office to have me edit his first report. He was nervous, but prideful nervous rather than scared. He didn't have bags under his eyes anymore.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#262

Post by oooyay » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 11:41 PM UTC

coffeemug wrote: post #255

oooyay wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. Are we talking US military here? I think I recognize the pattern you're talking about when you say: > I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I hav…

People use all kinds of colloquial models for mental health that may or may not have a relationship with reality. It is not obvious to me that there is such a thing as "underlying problems" that you mask by doing something else. Maybe, maybe not-- mental health is complicated and you have to prove this stuff. An alternative model is that people get depressed when they do nothing at home, and get better when they're s…

I was speaking from some lived experience, so I'll be a bit more clear about what I meant by "underlying problems":

There were little activities to do on my base other than drink. I was paid very little, little enough not to afford a car. The cities I was stationed in were sounded by all kinds of loan sharks as a result. There were very few activities funded by the military that weren't somehow childlike or oriented for people with families. I was forced to live in a very old barracks that at times, frankly, barely functioned. While living in the barracks you can be summoned for duty at any time, unlike people who live off-base (married people). My life was as a Marine, so I'd be curious to hear an Airman's perspective. The services also tend to attract people who are actively attempting to leave home, so read from that what you will. None of these things are really unknown to the military or military leaders.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#263

Post by sandworm101 » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 11:46 PM UTC

nsguy wrote: post #220

sandworm101 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

You go home from the military during basic training? Curious what country that is... Having served I agree that a military environment where your day is full and you're basically told what to do all the time, and you're maybe working extremely hard, can override some "bad thoughts". That said, it's not unheard of for soldiers to commit suicide, harm themselves or others, and generally suffer from stress related to th…

>> Think basic training stuff.

Basic training is a nothing thing in the military. It does not represent what military life is like. It is just a temporary proving ground for new employees. That said, many units still do unit PT in the afternoons specifically so that people head home reasonably tired. Remember too that in the military, especially for young single people, "home" is wherever you rack out.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#264

Post by oooyay » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 11:49 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #261

oooyay wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. Are we talking US military here? I think I recognize the pattern you're talking about when you say: > I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I hav…

With young people it isn't a matter of running them tired and bypassing the problem. Most aren't actually mentally ill, rather for the first time in their lives they don't have someone telling them how to live their lives on a daily basis. So they are given structure until they can work that stuff out for themselves. Extra work is often part of that structure. For instance, I know of one 19yo who was basically bored…

I get what you're saying now. People do need billets to bridge them to some more higher official responsibility if you want them to grow. That said, I don't think this is a great panacea for mental health days. Generally I use mental health days if I'm overly stressed, burned out, upset, etc...

Would you let a troop take a sick day if they were any of those things?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#265

Post by boogieknite » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 11:50 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #212

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

I've seen what you describe but then also can speak for myself that on my time off I'm awfully active. Building things physical and/or software, spending time outside, reading, etc. If I retired tomorrow I'd probably work just as much, if not more, because I'd work on my interests and not what I was assigned. This is common for the majority of adults I know.

I'd say I'm far from fully burnt out (we've all had our moments) but I think there is some career saturation point where people feel ownership over their free time and treat it with respect instead of "drinking/gaming".

Is wasting days off a symptom of youth? Is it because military employees lack autonomy? Is it just natural after years of selling your time to an employer?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#266

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 11:51 PM UTC

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

[deleted]

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#267

Post by StillBored » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 11:52 PM UTC

In almost 30 years of software engineering, I came to the conclusion years ago that most deadlines were entirely arbitrary. The business isn't going to fail if you slip a week, or frequently even six months and if it does its probably not the fault of engineering unless its so dysfunctional as to repeatably blow through its own delivery estimates. Sure there are regulatory deadlines, customer POC or delivery deadlines. But, truly hard deadlines won't pop up as "we need this done next week" unless there is something fundamentally wrong with the business/sales side. A good functioning engineering/business unit will know far in advance of those kinds of deadlines and it becomes a question of whether the existing engineering org is capable of delivering the functionality within a heavily padded schedule.

Put another way, I don't think i've ever seen a customer walk from a product because it wasn't released on a cadence, in fact many aren't actually happy about upgrades unless they are fixing a problem they have requested. And sales/POC cycles are such that frequently the customer may not actually have an alternative solution, or if they do, the chances they will switch to your product simply because you have X this year instead of next year isn't something that hinges on small factors that can be done by the engineering team in short cycles. You win because the product is better/etc and that doesn't happen overnight.

So, stressing and working endless 80 hour weeks likely is going to have the opposite effect and creates a low quality product that people are trying to get rid of because it keeps breaking.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#268

Post by Zenzero » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 11:54 PM UTC

david-gpu wrote: post #253

Zenzero wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who crossed over from medicine, I can attest that software engineers have it very very good. Appreciate what you have. I accept everyone's personal experiences with bad management, unreasonable timelines, and uninspiring projects, but those things are everywhere. Now add in patients and their families having the worst days of their lives in your presence day after day, high-pressure decision making, not ge…

> While it may sound insensitive, software engineering is nowhere near as complex or stressful as many (but not all) medical roles. It is both mentally and physically less taxing As much as I respect your personal experience, I think you make a mistake in assuming that it is universal. Further, you are also making the mistake of invalidating other people's individual experiences based on your perception of what the a…

I hear what you're saying, but I don't feel I said it was universal in the sense that you're describing it. On the whole I would rate the average software engineer as having a less stressful life than the average doctor. I acknowledge that there are outliers and individual experiences that go against the average.

That said, I would argue that you underestimate the number of people in medicine who are burnt out. Many of my colleagues stay because it is a sunk cost financially/time-wise/reputatationally. You can pull up the numerous studies on burnout rates that have been done.

I'd anything it affirms my statement that you don't realize how much worse it could be. Like I said, there's a difference between taking down prod for 6 hours and getting sued for accusations that you killed a living being. This isn't intended to be a competition but it does become a bit absurd to watch people in the software world act like burnout from a micromanaging PM, unrealistic stakeholders, etc is the pinnacle of human suffering.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#269

Post by tbirdny » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 11:55 PM UTC

dboreham wrote: post #153

I've come to believe that there's something about the practice of software development that causes , or can cause mental illness. I've seen a few colleagues over the decades have some very serious issues. It's really quite a serious problem in our industry, imho.

They say that pessimists see the world more accurately. And, I often think about how programming makes you see the world more accurately. Because, when you're programming, over and over and over again the computer tells you when your program doesn't work. No amount of wishing or insisting will change it. Yelling at your computer is unlikely to fix your program. People who work in other careers, like if they mainly deal with people, can more easily believe in wishful thinking and that everything will just work out because you want it to.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#270

Post by rexpop » Thu, Apr 11, 2024, 11:56 PM UTC

Zenzero wrote: post #237

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

As someone who crossed over from medicine, I can attest that software engineers have it very very good. Appreciate what you have. I accept everyone's personal experiences with bad management, unreasonable timelines, and uninspiring projects, but those things are everywhere. Now add in patients and their families having the worst days of their lives in your presence day after day, high-pressure decision making, not ge…

What are your goals with this comment? What, do you estimate, has been your outcome?

If you want to bring medical profession stressors to light, go right ahead. This is an article about a real phenomenon. Not every complaint must be universal or superordinate.

You don't sound "insensitive," you sound juvenile. If your profession is harmful to practitioners, perhaps attempt to cultivate solidarity instead of actively working to demolish it?

As someone who's familiar with artisanal cobalt mining in the DRC, I can attest that medical practitioners have it good, but I won't because that would be unconstructive in a conversation about the latter's working conditions. Grow up.