Mental health in software engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#411

Post by matrix87 » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 7:15 AM UTC

SJC_Hacker wrote: post #239

ericmcer wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything Engineers would get the least pushback to taking a mental health day of those careers. Our skillset becomes so uniquely tied to the company we work at that replacing a veteran engineer would take more than a year minimum. The differences between operations at two hospitals is probably minuscule compared to two tech companies. It also feels like managers have received training in "burnout" so the few times…

> Our skillset becomes so uniquely tied to the company we work at that replacing a veteran engineer would take more than a year minimum. The differences between operations at two hospitals is probably minuscule compared to two tech companies. Companies/managers have gotten alot smarter about this. The strategy is to hire enough and be managed to a degree such that the operation of any single system is never left leav…

> The strategy is to hire enough and be managed to a degree such that the operation of any single system is never left leave to any single engineer.

In code the equivalent of this is having some bloated thing that's been touched by one too many shitty people who are only willing to learn just enough to mark their tickets done. That code turns into a ball and chain that no one wants to work on. Turnover becomes normalized

One of the reasons why most important stuff happens in open source

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#412

Post by matrix87 » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 7:30 AM UTC

datadrivenangel wrote: post #5

"An example of uncertainty in business is when your CEO tells you they promised a feature to your biggest client and it needs to be built ASAP as highest priority, so all hands on deck. Then a day later they tell you another feature, completely contradictory to the first one, needs to be built as well and is also highest priority. When you tell them they both can't be highest priority, the answer is: make it happen."…

> When you tell them they both can't be highest priority, the answer is: make it happen

"Quality or quantity?"

"Yes"

These types are some of the most insufferable people imaginable

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#413

Post by jalapenos » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 11:36 AM UTC

StillBored wrote: post #267

In almost 30 years of software engineering, I came to the conclusion years ago that most deadlines were entirely arbitrary. The business isn't going to fail if you slip a week, or frequently even six months and if it does its probably not the fault of engineering unless its so dysfunctional as to repeatably blow through its own delivery estimates. Sure there are regulatory deadlines, customer POC or delivery deadline…

All deadline-based management does is turn the code to mush, so that tasks in 3 years time from now take twice as long as they would have, with even less delivery predicability (which of course they'll respond to by imposing deadlines more aggressively, and so on goes the downward spiral).

It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#414

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 12:00 PM UTC

elevatedastalt wrote: post #289

earthling8118 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You dismiss that these are arbitrary, but I'm not seeing a whole lot in your examples that aren't also arbitrary. Sure, this is how a lot, if not all, companies work. That does nothing to disprove that this is arbitrary at the cost of mental health.

What is your point? We are not isolates who just subsist by ourselves. The modern world is a massively complex interconnected and interdependent system and we rely on the glue of capitalism to ensure that everyone still looks out for themselves but makes it all work for the system. Were the massive chip shortages causing a massive reduction in car availability and increase in prices "arbitrary"? Was the Suez canal bl…

Crunch culture will fix none of those problems. Especially not the first two.

What's your exchange rate for expo revenue loss vs employee physical and mental health?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#415

Post by ElevenLathe » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 1:08 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #189

mr_mitm wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about Germany? Because if you want to take a vacation day, it is subject to approval by the employer. They can deny if they have a good reason. And in many cases, like in my case, a short term absence would ruin a customer project and would thus certainly not be approved.

I don't know about German law, I was talking about Poland. In Poland, the employer cannot refuse to give you a day off (even if your request it on the very day), four times a year.

In salaried (I don't recall the proper Polish term) jobs in Poland, I understand that employees must take at least two consecutive weeks off per year. This intel is about ten years out of date though, so don't know what the situation is now.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#416

Post by ElevenLathe » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 1:17 PM UTC

n4r9 wrote: post #57

xyst wrote: post #11

This is a person that should have never been in a leadership position. I have worked under these types of people that were great engineers themselves but couldn’t lead worth shit. No trust in the team. Always doing shit themselves. No discussion. Backdoor discussions. Always bending to the will of management. Everything is “important”/“critical”. It’s micromanaging to the worst degree. At the same time, I would likel…

It's an oversimplification to say they "should have never been" a leader. In truth, they could have used specific training in prioritisation, delegation, and emotional intelligence. I find it's rare that this sort of training is provided. Instead, good performers are thrown into the deep end to see if they can hack it.

This might be true in a harm mitigation sense, but really "leadership" itself is a scam invented by the people who benefit from hierarchy. It is a way of mystifying the relationship between you and your boss (or commanding officer, or politicians, etc.), attributing an abstract quality to them that justifies their position over you, rather than the truth which is that the only thing different about them is their position in the hierarchy. It serves the same function as the divine right of kings.

Nobody should be a "leader". Maybe we can't avoid hierarchy (because societies/groups that don't use it tend to be outcompeted by those that do) but we don't have to sprinkle it with holy water and pretend it's sacred.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#417

Post by insane_dreamer » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 3:51 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #212

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

> with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing.

This sounds more like like papering over the underlying causes and likely exacerbating the problem; the fact that they're drinking heavily may be as an escape from the environment in which they are operating. I wouldn't call this active mental health prevention.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#418

Post by UncleMeat » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 4:50 PM UTC

jjav wrote: post #288

mjr00 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex b…

> Software engineering is not a low-status position Pay is not status. Software currently pays quite well, but in most companies today a developer is at the very bottom of the status curve. Developers are no longer allowed any say in what to build or how to build it, they are micromanaged by product managers and program managers and team managers and required to give daily status reports ("agile"). (I say "used to" b…

You are woefully misinformed if you think that doctors have a significant say in their day to day work.

My sister is in medicine. Her entire day, down to each 30 minute block, is prescheduled for her. Often, she is forced to see multiple patients at once to increase revenues. The services that she is allowed to provide are governed by a completely separate insurance company. Strict metrics are tracked about the outcomes of each visit, including things like "how often did you see somebody for 35 minutes because that way you could charge for a full hour but spend less of your time."

This is far worse than anything I have ever experienced in software regarding tickets coming down from PMs or tracking of the amount of code committed in a week.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#419

Post by BHSPitMonkey » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 6:03 PM UTC

yetihehe wrote: post #362

jabradoodle wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excluding this one sentence in the article > Software Engineers and Tech co-founders, like us, are more prone to hitting the lows. I don't see where anyone was comparing software engineering/engineers to another profession. I certainly don't see where it was proclaimed a crisis. I don't think it's productive to tell people others have it worse when they are promoting a discussion around mental health. I also don't th…

I remember taltking to some of my friends about who has it better. When I ask "would you like to work like me?" typical answer is "Sitting 8h staring at a screen? I couldn't do that!". When I was summer-working at home construction 8-19, I was tired after a day of work, but pretty happy. Now when I'm sitting so long programming, I have headache and feel tired constantly. There is something about moving all day which…

A key difference is that most tech workers have the freedom to insert physical exercise/hobbies into their work day, work flexible hours, walk on a treadmill at a standing desk, etc. and someone in a physically laborious job makes no such choices. Not all tech workers avail themselves of this flexibility as much as they should, but that's on the individual.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#420

Post by Viliam1234 » Sat, Apr 13, 2024, 8:49 PM UTC

jalapenos wrote: post #413

StillBored wrote: post #267

In almost 30 years of software engineering, I came to the conclusion years ago that most deadlines were entirely arbitrary. The business isn't going to fail if you slip a week, or frequently even six months and if it does its probably not the fault of engineering unless its so dysfunctional as to repeatably blow through its own delivery estimates. Sure there are regulatory deadlines, customer POC or delivery deadline…

All deadline-based management does is turn the code to mush, so that tasks in 3 years time from now take twice as long as they would have, with even less delivery predicability (which of course they'll respond to by imposing deadlines more aggressively, and so on goes the downward spiral). It's a marathon, not a sprint.

> It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Unless you do "Agile", in which case it is an endless sequence of sprints.