Live data from Hacker News

I Lost Faith in Kagi

d-shoot.net

261–270 of 639 posts

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#261
post #49

[flagged]

Oh, ffs, is this going to be the new thing, now? People pretending to read articles by feeding them to an AI and believing whatever old nonsense it spits out? I do think the "humanity is doomed" angle with AIs is overplayed, but okay, yeah, if people are going to do that, maybe humanity _is_ doomed. If you read the article, you will discover that your magic robot is mistaken.

I pretty much hate you all now for making me read the goddam thing entirely. It's stupid and boring and Claude3 is right. The guy does not point to any holes in security or privacy. He doesn't like the guy's attitude but, there's no "he's collecting your search in privacy mode" claim.

His only criticism of the search results is to say he doesn't think it's better than anyone else.

And yes, it's going to be a thing now. We have cool tools that help us get stuff done quicker. In this case, I read part of the article, then skimmed it before asking Claude3 to read it carefully. Then, because you people are full of fantasy, I read it personally carefully and confirm that my magic robot is exactly right. That encourages me to do it more.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your AI is... wrong. The article contains clear criticisms of search quality and privacy concerns around a CEO who says things like "people who really need anonymity are very rare. probably elss than a 100 in the entire world."

Not sure how that contradicts Claude's conclusions. Also, he's right. I might like anonymity but it is absolutely a 'want', not 'need'.

You asked your AI if there was "any discussion of privacy", and it said no. That's clearly incorrect, and you've now changed the goalpost massively to disagreement personally with that discussion.

Here, I asked Claude about it, since you like that approach.

> A CEO of a search engine states "people who really need anonymity are very rare. probably less than a 100 in the entire world". Is this concerning from a privacy perspective?

> Yes, this statement by the CEO of a search engine company is quite concerning from a privacy perspective for several reasons:

> 1. Underestimating the need for anonymity: The claim that only a few people in the world "really need anonymity" is a gross underestimation. There are many legitimate reasons why individuals may need anonymity, such as whistleblowers, journalists, activists, victims of abuse, members of persecuted groups, and even ordinary citizens who value their privacy.

> 2. Privacy as a fundamental human right: Privacy is widely recognized as a fundamental human right. By dismissing the need for anonymity, the CEO is essentially disregarding the right to privacy for a large segment of the population.

> 3. Potential conflict of interest: As the CEO of a search engine company, which collects and monetizes user data, there is a potential conflict of interest. Downplaying the importance of anonymity and privacy could be seen as a way to justify the company's data collection practices.

> 4. Centralization of power: The statement reflects a concerning centralization of power, where a single entity (the search engine company) gets to decide who "really needs anonymity" and who doesn't. This goes against the principles of a free and open internet.

> 5. Chilling effect: Such statements from a prominent tech leader could have a chilling effect on individuals who seek anonymity for legitimate reasons, as it may discourage them from exercising their right to privacy.

> Overall, this statement by the CEO reflects a concerning lack of understanding or appreciation for the importance of privacy and anonymity in a free and democratic society. It underscores the need for strong privacy protections, decentralized systems, and a broader recognition of the fundamental right to privacy for all individuals, regardless of their specific circumstances.

As a follow-up...

> How do you feel about the claim "I might like anonymity but it is absolutely a 'want', not 'need'."

> I would disagree with the blanket claim that anonymity is absolutely a "want" and not a "need" for everyone. While that may be true for some people, there are many legitimate scenarios where anonymity can be a crucial need, not just a want...

> blah blah blah

> While anonymity may just be a casual preference for some, denying that it can be a critical need for others is concerning. It dismisses the reality that millions face real threats to their safety, freedom or even lives which anonymity helps protect against. Reducing it to just a "want" is dismissive of these legitimate needs.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#263
post #8

I still pay for Kagi for its search but this has kind of been the problem from the beginning with their org. - Search has been a breath of fresh air, I wish they dedicated more time to it. - Orion...is ok? I use it off and on and it is fine but would rather have better search. The premise of the browser is nice but it feels like this could probably be a whole separate company or a purely open source endeavor. It has…

> The t-shirts are weird and made me lose a lot of faith in their org. The way I look at it is instead of making their products better, they flushed a bunch of money down the drain for t-shirts and its offensive to paying customers who are paying because they enjoy the product and want it to become better, they don't want a t-shirt. Kagi founder here and I want to clarify the train of thoughts around Kagi printing an…

[deleted]

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#264
post #8

I still pay for Kagi for its search but this has kind of been the problem from the beginning with their org. - Search has been a breath of fresh air, I wish they dedicated more time to it. - Orion...is ok? I use it off and on and it is fine but would rather have better search. The premise of the browser is nice but it feels like this could probably be a whole separate company or a purely open source endeavor. It has…

> The t-shirts are weird and made me lose a lot of faith in their org. The way I look at it is instead of making their products better, they flushed a bunch of money down the drain for t-shirts and its offensive to paying customers who are paying because they enjoy the product and want it to become better, they don't want a t-shirt. Kagi founder here and I want to clarify the train of thoughts around Kagi printing an…

I work in CX, you should listen to your customers. Your gut got you this far, but to be a profitable company you are going to need to consider the advice and concerns of your stakeholders. Based on your current description, you have two stakeholders (yourself + customers).

If the venture fails, you will ask yourself if you listened enough. Be proactive, address concerns, do not put yourself in a defensive position. Embrace change, be agile, and most importantly listen to your feedback.

Wish Kagi nothing but success, I would very much like a disruptor in this space. Best of luck to you and your team.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#265

I am surprised that nobody mentioned Kagi Maps so far. To me this is the largest waste of energy possible, building an Apple/Google Maps competitor is a project too ambitious and time consuming for a 12 person company which is also developing a search engine (and a browser, and AI assistants, etc.). Kagi should nail their search engine first and only then start side projects like that.

> I am surprised that nobody mentioned Kagi Maps so far. To me this is the largest waste of energy possible, building an Apple/Google Maps competitor

Kagi maps seems to just be Apple maps otherwise I don't see why they would put Apple maps logo in the bottom left corner.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#266

Is Kagi actually running their own search engine or are they just representing the outputs of other company's search engines? I ask because I am considering a subscription.

I think they do have their own index but they are also heavily reliant on other search engines.

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#267

The real lesson here is that as a founder, don't spend too much time discussing with your users on discord. Gathering feedback good. But getting involved in philosophical discussion or how to run the company looks like a bad idea.

Kagi founder here. I am probably 'guilty' of reading and responding to every comment on discord, our feedback forum and I still respond to support tickets. This does invite trouble but interacting with users of the product I am building is also the only way I know how to do it and is keeping me sane. Not to mention it helps build a great product, as users probably 'built' half of it with feedback. I never thought tha…

also not repeatedly emailing when they've already asked you to stop might be worth considering maybe

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#268
post #8

I still pay for Kagi for its search but this has kind of been the problem from the beginning with their org. - Search has been a breath of fresh air, I wish they dedicated more time to it. - Orion...is ok? I use it off and on and it is fine but would rather have better search. The premise of the browser is nice but it feels like this could probably be a whole separate company or a purely open source endeavor. It has…

> The t-shirts are weird and made me lose a lot of faith in their org. The way I look at it is instead of making their products better, they flushed a bunch of money down the drain for t-shirts and its offensive to paying customers who are paying because they enjoy the product and want it to become better, they don't want a t-shirt. Kagi founder here and I want to clarify the train of thoughts around Kagi printing an…

"Kagi does no paid advertising"

I remember Daniel King's PowerPlayChess channel recently started promoting Kagi, doesn't this count as paid advertising or is this deal something else?

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#269
post #29

I've read the first third of the article and I didn't get what's the author's problem with Kagi. What do they care how many employees Kagi has or how much they spend on t-shirts. Then I scrolled through the rest of it and read the very last screenshot. That one looks pretty bad. > people who really need anonymity are very rare. probably less than a 100 in the entire world. definitely not typical Kagi users > unless t…

[deleted]

Re: I Lost Faith in Kagi

#270
Kagi Ultimate user here.

This article comes across so unhinged it almost works as an advertisement, except for the founder dismissing privacy issues...

I'm happy to hear Kagi are creating an e-mail service though, I've been looking to get away from Microsoft 365 since I'm not really using the meat of it. I hope they allow multiple aliases per users and perhaps add a masking service as well.

Post reply on HN