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Mental health in software engineering

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Re: Mental health in software engineering

#221

Post by kelsey98765431 »

anal_reactor wrote: post #198
adamc wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hypothesis about that, based on prior battles with depression. A characteristic of many people who struggle with depression is revisiting things over and over in your mind, looking for what is often a non-existent solution. This is a very, very useful trait in a software engineer. It helps us think of solutions to hard problems, to see options that are not initially obvious. But it also enables mental illnes…

I was born in a tiny village in a poor country where local politicians literally banned wifi in schools because apparently "radiowaves cause autism and homosexuality". I'm not joking. This was the official governmental position. In 2017. You can imagine technical literacy of anyone I had contact with as a child, years before that. Today I work as an engineer at a known American corporation, slowly but surely moving u…

War, war never changes. Once you think about what we do as a form of combat, be it sparring in a classroom setting with kid gloves on or an all out bare knuckle street brawl, what we do is a form of grappling combat. You are right about dedicating 100% of your life to be where you are. In my experience in the industry there are two types of developers, those who do it as a job and those who live it as a life. No disrespect to those who are just there to take care of their family, but they are of a different breed. Programming is in a weird place where it's literally brand new in terms of the scale of human history and yet already "established" as an industry. Most of the engineers that I look up to and respect are the ones that will be coding from a wet cardboard box should it come to that, but darn it the code will be pushed to main no matter what.

That's not a healthy work life balance, that's not even a lifestyle, it's a deep core aspect of these people. The most effective engineers i know come from a military background, and not because the military somehow makes you a better coder, but because it can give you the attitude to persevere adapt and overcome intense mental and emotional challenges. Building products is great, I have nothing but love for those who sign off at 5pm - But every day including weekends the small group of so called "10x"ers are staying in touch long after the day is done and already done with the first round of work before the 8am standup.

It's not fair to ask those who just want to take care of their children to rise to meet this level of commitment, and the engineers doing this usually are working hard to establish their own products and startups but the true ultimate goal of that is to be paid to write whatever we want, and the money is the means to the end of writing more code.

Rest in peace to those who have not made it to their goals and no longer have the chance to try. Best wishes to those who want to have a home or family life yet compare themselves to those who have sacrificed everything for this life.

Why do they do it? Most often a deep sense of duty, or some deep sense of unease that the soft glow of the terminal evokes. Perhaps both.

All this to say that your pain and suffering is real and the true payout is just more pain and suffering. To those thinking about this life I recommend Musashi's Five Rings and to honor the Bushido.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#222

Post by darth_avocado »

yodsanklai wrote: post #206
chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> People take sick days all the time for mental health When you take a sick day, you're not supposed to say what's your issue.

That’s right, because the minute you say you’re taking it for mental health, you get managed out. I’ve personally seen it happen at one of the major food delivery startup, at one of the big social media companies and at Amazon.

The steps are the same. First they pile on more work on you, then gaslight you in believing your workload is the same as a junior employee and/or is subpar, then take you on a journey of “helping” you improve, document every small thing as a major flaw and then get you in that meeting with the HR.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#223

Post by nsguy »

itronitron wrote: post #183
chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

Many people don't know that they can tell their manager they will be out for health/medical reasons and do not have to provide any additional information (i.e. flu, back issues, mental wellness, etc...) . It would benefit a lot of people if they were taught basic laws related to employment while they are in school.

Different in every country.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#224

Post by __loam »

lenerdenator wrote: post #33
surfingdino wrote: post #27

I used to be in (moderate) awe of young college drop-out CEOs. Then I worked for a couple of them. Now I refuse to work for startups that have 20-somethings at the top, because they really do not know how to manage or lead. They are motivated by fear of failure and having accomplished nothing so far they treat others like garbage. Avoid.

The phenomenon of showing up at Stanford and telling some 21-year-old that he's Jesus Christ and that you're going to give him millions of dollars is a wen on the American business culture matched only by corporate raiding. It's the nerd version of college football/basketball recruiting.

That and Welchism are two big reasons why the business culture in the valley sucks.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#225

Post by __loam »

IggleSniggle wrote: post #67
jongjong wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so weird. I started to think that maybe this is intentional. It looks as though investors want to invest only in over-optimistic people who believe that we're living in some kind of utopian paradise; at the same time they avoid investing in anyone who has had so much of a faint whiff of how the sausage gets made. It's like the entire system is desperate to keep optimists optimistic and pessimists pessimistic. Wh…

I think it's because you need a figure-head that truly has zero doubt that what they are doing is the best and most correct thing. Because it has to sell, and it can't sound like a car-salesman pitch. It might not be in the best interest of the company, it just needs to be a hype train long enough for the VC to get theirs. The Greater Fool meets real life. The VC doesn't care one way or another if the founder benefit…

Using smart children who have degrees from reputable institutions like Stanford is a value signal that VC uses to get more people involved with their plays. It's borrowing legitimacy and adding to the Jobsian mythology of the company, while also getting someone who has no idea what they're doing into a position where they will listen to a board who will tell them what to do.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#226

Post by preordained »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #173
barbariangrunge wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need wins to feel good. Or, projects with finish lines. But many projects go on year after year with no finish lines, ever, unless you or the company runs out of juice, or you move to a different company to do the same thing. In web dev, launch day is the closest you get, but it’s not a real finish line. Hitting kpi targets sort of counts, but it’s not psychologically satisfying like finishing a table or a piece…

Only because programmers use up thier artistic juices at work. Plenty of my friends who are payroll or work in warehouses do not have any mental investment into work and use that energy outside of work to write, quilt, or do stimulating activities of thier own choice. For me after work I put on Judge Judy and let my brain rot

This is real thing I'm glad you've acknowledged as more than just a figment of my imagination. There are things I want to do outside of work programming that are there own level of mental taxing and/or creative...side projects, competitive Magic the Gathering...and I while usually find some juice to squeeze into these, I do agree that it seems like many other professions leave a lot more in the tank.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#227

Post by ericmcer »

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

If anything Engineers would get the least pushback to taking a mental health day of those careers.

Our skillset becomes so uniquely tied to the company we work at that replacing a veteran engineer would take more than a year minimum. The differences between operations at two hospitals is probably minuscule compared to two tech companies.

It also feels like managers have received training in "burnout" so the few times I have uttered those words usually leads to some temporary white glove treatment.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#228

Post by xerxesaa »

surfingdino wrote: post #27

I used to be in (moderate) awe of young college drop-out CEOs. Then I worked for a couple of them. Now I refuse to work for startups that have 20-somethings at the top, because they really do not know how to manage or lead. They are motivated by fear of failure and having accomplished nothing so far they treat others like garbage. Avoid.

In theory, yes. But in practice, is it true? Are Amazon and Oracle better places to work than Facebook and Stripe?

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#230

Post by fatnoah »

darth_avocado wrote: post #222
yodsanklai wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People take sick days all the time for mental health When you take a sick day, you're not supposed to say what's your issue.

That’s right, because the minute you say you’re taking it for mental health, you get managed out. I’ve personally seen it happen at one of the major food delivery startup, at one of the big social media companies and at Amazon. The steps are the same. First they pile on more work on you, then gaslight you in believing your workload is the same as a junior employee and/or is subpar, then take you on a journey of “help…

This is very different than my experience at another FAANG. One of my reports was able to take a multi-week mental health leave and return without any negative impact on performance rating or career. Of course, mileage probably varies from manager to manager and org to org.
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