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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#601

Post by rich_sasha »

tech_ken wrote: post #490
rich_sasha wrote: post #249

I don't like anything about this war, but in a way, I think concerns of AI in warfare are, at this stage, overblown. I'm more concerned about the humans doing the shooting. Let's face it, in any war, civilians are really screwed. It's true here, it was true in Afghanistan or Vietnam or WWII. They get shot at, they get bombed, by accident or not, they get displaced. Milosevic in Serbia didn't need an AI to commit geno…

I like this point, and I do think you're rightly pointing out that the issue is that selection of targets may be done badly, not that AI specifically is in the loop. With that said, I think an important detail you're overlooking is the frictionless-ness of this process. That quote people are throwing around about something like "efficiently producing the largest volume of human targets" gets to this point pretty dire…

I agree making something bad easier is bad too. But does AI make the bad thing easier here?

I see two cases here. One is that the AI has some non-negligible accuracy, and one where it doesn't. If it's somewhat accurate, then actually, using it is saving civilian lives, attacking only the active enemy.

And if it's inaccurate... Then presumably whoever made it knows it, and whoever uses it knows it's merely a fig leaf for shooting random people, and is ok with that. Is it then worse to kill random people as found by an AI than to drop a bomb somewhere, because you have a hunch there might be a worthwhile target there? This is the bit I'm not sure of.

In this war, it's so easy to find the other side. If you want to recklessly shoot civilians, they are just on the other side of the wall. I'm not sure that AI makes it any easier.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#602

Post by ThalesX »

stefan_ wrote: post #506
KingMob wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What can one do when criminals have embedded them self in the civilian population? Why don't they get out and meet the police on the battle field? We wouldn't tolerate a SWAT team blowing up a hospital if the mafia had taken over the basement, I have no idea why you think this is acceptable. > It is much better than the carpet bombing used by other nations. It is exactly like the carpet bombing used by other nation…

Because this is war and not a SWAT police operation? If soldiers in the field have reason to believe the enemy is in a building and call in air support to bomb it, no part of that is a war crime. Even if someone later goes and discovers the people in that building were actually preschoolers; what matters is what the people in the field making the decisions knew at that moment.

> what matters is what the people in the field making the decisions knew at that moment

This is insane. What matters is the objective truth, whether or not dozens of preschoolers were killed due to an operational mistake.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#604

Post by throwawaymanbot »

Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

[dead]

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#605

Post by GuB-42 »

CommieBobDole wrote: post #128
Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

It's also interesting (and I guess typical for end-users of software) how quickly and easily something like this goes from "Here's a tool you can use as an information input when deciding who to target" to "I dunno, computer says these are the people we need to kill, let's get to it". In the Guardian article, an IDF spokesperson says it exists and is only used as the former, and I'm sure that's what was intended and…

Ideally, that would be "Computer says we shouldn't kill these people, let's not".

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#606

Post by sam_goody »

NickC25 wrote: post #388
HDThoreaun wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been pretty clear to me for a while now that Israel's long term plan for the Palestinians is to expel them all. Starvation isnt a requirement for that, but it is probably the path of least resistance. I will say that its happening a lot faster than I expected though, Israel definitely taking advantage of the situation here.

[flagged]

Actually they are very happy to live with their Arab neighbors, and even invite them into their homes and lives.

You can find plenty of pro Palestinian speeches and sentiments from those who chose to live in the South, who were then murdered by the people they supported.

Many (most?) of those who committed the attacks on Oct. 7 were working in Israeli houses and factories, and they proceeded to kill their employers and co-workers.

Unfortunately, the news is selectively reported, and nonsense from Hamas is reported as truths, and there is a HEAVY slant against Israel. But no need to parrot stuff like this which is openly against the facts.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#607

Post by Quanttek »

jibe wrote: post #436
Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

That is, only members of the armed wing of Hamas (not recruiters, weapon manufacturers, propagandists, financiers, …) can be targeted for attack It seems wrong that you can't target weapon manufacturers, can you cite a source? Weapon manufacturers contribute to the military action, and destroying weapon manufacturers contributes to military advantage.

You can target the manufacturing plants since they are military objectives but you cannot target the workers. If any war-sustaining activity would make you, as a person, a target, pretty much anyone could be bombed: farmers, bankers, power plant engineers, truck drivers, ...

For a source, you can check out the Red Cross document I linked. Specifically, Ctrl+F for "continuous combat function" and read the commentary on recommendation V. The Guidance is considered authoritative in legal circles.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#609

Post by quandrum »

jibe wrote: post #436
Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

That is, only members of the armed wing of Hamas (not recruiters, weapon manufacturers, propagandists, financiers, …) can be targeted for attack It seems wrong that you can't target weapon manufacturers, can you cite a source? Weapon manufacturers contribute to the military action, and destroying weapon manufacturers contributes to military advantage.

In the case of Hamas, the US and Israel are the primary weapon manufacturer, as unexploded ordinance is the primary source of their explosives.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/hamas-is-using-unexplo...

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#610

Post by mschuster91 »

Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

> Only those who have the "continuous function" to "directly participate in hostilities"[1] may be targeted for attack at any time.

The problem with Hamas is that they don't shy away from hiding combattants in civilian clothings or use women and children as suicide bombers. There is more than enough evidence of this tactic, dating back many many years [1].

By not just not preventing, but actively ordering such war crimes, Hamas leadership has stripped its civilian population of the protections of international law.

> Otherwise, the allowed list of targets of civilians gets so wide than in any regular war, pretty much any civilian could get targeted, such as the bank employee whose company has provided loans to the armed forces.

In regular wars, it's uniformed soldiers against uniformed soldiers, away from civilian infrastructure (hospitals, schools, residential areas). The rules of war make deviating from that a war crime on its own, simply because it places the other party in the conflict of either having no chance to wage the war or to commit war crimes on their own.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_b...

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