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'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

972mag.com

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#581

Post by BriggyDwiggs42 »

sequoia wrote: post #362

I'm disturbed by the idea that an AI could be used to make decisions that could proactively kill someone. (Presumably computer already make decisions that passively kill people by, for example, navigating a self-driving car.) Though there was a human sign-off in this case, it seems one step away from people being killed by robots with zero human intervention which is about one step away from the plot of Terminator. I…

Look I know this is gonna sound cliche but the thing they should do is not engage in an offensive asymmetrical war and bomb a dense urban area full of innocents for basically no reason. Then they wouldn’t need the little ai.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#582

Post by FireBeyond »

edanm wrote: post #514
smt88 wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you think they should have autonomy and a democratic state, which most of the world also agrees with.

I think the implication is that Gaza does have semi-autonomy (it is a complicated situation - there's a blockade, but it has security autonomy within its region. Or did before October 7th). And Gaza was pushed towards democratic elections, which they held, elected Hamas, and Hamas hasn't permitted a democracy since then.

Let's not forget that Likud and Netanyahu were instrumental in funding and arming Hamas. The PLO and Arafat were becoming increasing moderate and willing to sit down and work out a peaceful two state solution. But the ultra right wing of Israel didn't want that, and didn't want awkward questions like "If they're willing to negotiate and work through diplomacy, why isn't Israel?" so they thought it'd be better to fund the rise of the extremist Hamas.

"From the River to the Sea" (Jordan River to the Red Sea) was not just a comment by Palestinian extremists, but was Likud's actual election campaign and slogan throughout the 1970s.

And it's hard, as a Gazan, to argue with Hamas, considering Hamas are about the only ones armed, thanks to Israel's ongoing air blockade (Arafat International Airport bombed in early 2000s), and the Israeli navy blockading Port of Gaza since 2007.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#583

Post by nickpsecurity »

readyplayeremma wrote: post #371
sequoia wrote: post #362

I'm disturbed by the idea that an AI could be used to make decisions that could proactively kill someone. (Presumably computer already make decisions that passively kill people by, for example, navigating a self-driving car.) Though there was a human sign-off in this case, it seems one step away from people being killed by robots with zero human intervention which is about one step away from the plot of Terminator. I…

> B., a senior officer who used Lavender, echoed to +972 and Local Call that in the current war, officers were not required to independently review the AI system’s assessments, in order to save time and enable the mass production of human targets without hindrances. > “Everything was statistical, everything was neat — it was very dry,” B. said. He noted that this lack of supervision was permitted despite internal che…

I don’t like Lavender. I think humans should always be in the loop. I’d like to see more care by analysts for kill orders.

That said, any organization might do something if it’s 90% accurate. Assuming it even is (doubt it), I think any fair evaluation of such a technology must ask:

What is the accuracy of inexperienced humans in the same position who are rushing through the review during a blitz invasion? If they have battle experience, what about them, too? (I’m assuming most won’t.)

Is the system better than those humans or worse? How often?

Do the strengths and weaknesses of the system allow confidence scores on predictions to know which need more review? Can we also increase reviews when the number of deaths will be high?

That’s how I’d start a review of this tech. If anyone is building military AI, I also ask that you please include methods to highlight likely corner cases or high-stakes situations. Then, someone’s human instincts might kick in where they spot and resolve a problem even in the heat of war.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#584

Post by pelasaco »

ahmadss wrote: post #441
verisimi wrote: post #390

In war, the first casualty is the truth. We have no idea whether this story itself is relaying anything of value. For all we know, stories like this could be a part of the war effort.

What does that even mean? 972 is a local Israeli outfit, with contributors from Israel and Palestine. They have sources within the IDF, sources who may be center-left leaning and are "done" with how the far-right coalition is running this war and they are blowing the whistle on this practice.

I never heard of 972 but at first look it doesn't look neutral. Everyone in Germany knows that this is not well pictured https://www.972mag.com/germany-israel-palestine-solidarity-r...

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#585

Post by underlipton »

jhallenworld wrote: post #399
readyplayeremma wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> B., a senior officer who used Lavender, echoed to +972 and Local Call that in the current war, officers were not required to independently review the AI system’s assessments, in order to save time and enable the mass production of human targets without hindrances. > “Everything was statistical, everything was neat — it was very dry,” B. said. He noted that this lack of supervision was permitted despite internal che…

I imagine you get to tune the probability window of "person is >90% likely a Hamas terrorist" and choose how many innocent people you kill. Who set the window? "Hamas terrorist" criteria: a male of fighting age, give higher weight to those congregating with others of fighting age. Basically take out a generation of Palestinian men and you're all set. Lovely. >This sentence is horrifically dystopian... "in order to sa…

>Basically take out a generation of Palestinian men and you're all set.

Now that we've established that this is horrific, please turn a small portion of your attention to American predictive policing systems (digital and not) and the circumstances that lead to mass incarceration (including the War on Drugs).

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#586

Post by FireBeyond »

stefan_ wrote: post #506
KingMob wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What can one do when criminals have embedded them self in the civilian population? Why don't they get out and meet the police on the battle field? We wouldn't tolerate a SWAT team blowing up a hospital if the mafia had taken over the basement, I have no idea why you think this is acceptable. > It is much better than the carpet bombing used by other nations. It is exactly like the carpet bombing used by other nation…

Because this is war and not a SWAT police operation? If soldiers in the field have reason to believe the enemy is in a building and call in air support to bomb it, no part of that is a war crime. Even if someone later goes and discovers the people in that building were actually preschoolers; what matters is what the people in the field making the decisions knew at that moment.

You realize you're actively advocating for a lack of critical thinking and investigation, to maintain plausible deniability? What could possibly go wrong?

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#587

Post by smashah »

_blk wrote: post #576
Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

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Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#588

Post by jsmith99 »

cess11 wrote: post #536
ranger207 wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or alternatively pressure from the top down on targeting specialists to get more and more targets selected resulting in less quality and effort spent on selecting targets and maybe leading to rubber-stamping proposed targets without adequate consideration. Which isn't to suggest that that would definitely make the AI better per se

It's an army too cowardly to have dismounted infantry protecting their tanks, so instead their conscripts burn alive in there when they get in contact with actual militants. It's an army incompetent enough to recreate the rubble of Stalingrad to help its enemy. How would they go about producing officers that could enact such pressure? How would they recognise the difference between a specialist and a charlatan whos f…

The weirdest thing about this bizarre comment is the suggestion that rabbis have any influence on the Israeli army.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#589

Post by nickff »

jibe wrote: post #436
Quanttek wrote: post #108

Years ago, scholars (such as Didier Bigo) have already raised concerns about the targeting of individuals merely based on (indirect) association with a "terrorist" or "criminal". Originally used in the context of surveillance (see Snowden revelations), such systems would target anyone who would be e.g. less than 3-steps away from an identified individual, thereby removing any sense of due process or targeted surveill…

That is, only members of the armed wing of Hamas (not recruiters, weapon manufacturers, propagandists, financiers, …) can be targeted for attack It seems wrong that you can't target weapon manufacturers, can you cite a source? Weapon manufacturers contribute to the military action, and destroying weapon manufacturers contributes to military advantage.

This is a very 'anti-war' opinion by a lawyer affiliated with the Red Cross, not some sort of treaty or other convention. As an example, the Geneva Convention's scope of protection is much narrower.

Re: 'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel's bombing in Gaza

#590

Post by [deleted] »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #255
goethes_kind wrote: post #186

Israel's evil keeps taking me by surprise. I guess when people go down the path of dehumanization there are truly no limits to what they are ready to do. But what is even sadder is that the supposedly morally superior western world is entirely bribed and blackmailed to stand behind Israel. And then you have countries like Germany where you get thrown in jail for being upset at Israel.

It's been pretty clear to me for a while now that Israel's long term plan for the Palestinians is to expel them all. Starvation isnt a requirement for that, but it is probably the path of least resistance. I will say that its happening a lot faster than I expected though, Israel definitely taking advantage of the situation here.

[deleted]
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