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The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

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Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#291

Post by rayiner »

randomdata wrote: post #76
ender7 wrote: post #56

I agree that the price of a college education is too high. I don't see how this justifies the conclusion that "therefore, people should stop going to college and take online courses." Most medical care is overpriced, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't get a heart transplant. I am deeply skeptical that online courses or for-profit education will result in anything but a horrible mess. (this is not to say that it…

but it's much harder - it's harder to get hired and it's harder to acquire the knowledge and experience necessary to be qualified for a position Is there any data to back this up? If we assume college is a four year undertaking, even if it takes you three years of work to find the job you are looking for without a degree, you're still expending less effort. My anecdotal experience says it's not even difficult at all.…

Try getting a job in any non-software engineering field without a college degree.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#292

Post by snowwrestler »

potatolicious wrote: post #171
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find disturbing here is the complete, total, hegemonic shift to thinking of education as job-training.

When education costs so much that one needs to take out a loan that then takes decades to repay, it must necessarily be job-training. It's practically impossible to justify otherwise. IMO it's impossible to expect the education system to be more holistic and less training-oriented unless the costs drop to the point where it's realistic to pursue it knowing there is not necessarily a monetary reward at the end.

I think the problem is that people do not understand that better education raises the ceiling in almost any job.

For example, a web developer might think that studying English or history would not help them do their job at all, but business is filled with contracts, memos, emails, and other writing that carries all kinds of subtext. The abilities to critically analyze and construct written arguments are invaluable in the business world. English or history educations teach these abilities.

It's like a mental martial art...you might not need it much, but if you don't know it, you're easier to beat up.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#293

Post by GuiA »

krschultz wrote: post #215
mkramlich wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your parti…

Fuck people who bitch about how expensive college is. You know how much I paid for college? $0. You know why I paid that? Because in high school I did a lot less than what you outlined above, but it was enough to get a scholarship to go to college. Six great schools looked at my application and offered me somewhere between a discounted rate and a full ride + stipend on top of that. And I was only 20th in my high scho…

I also paid $0 for college, but that's because I did my undergrad in Europe, and my US university entirely paid for my grad school costs :3

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#294

Post by dredmorbius »

overgryphon wrote: post #250
dredmorbius wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where having a solid referral network and a good technical pre-screening process help. The screen would be a quiz, puzzle, or other technical challenge which can root out the obviously unqualified (and possibly net you some viral buzz), while being easy for an HR drone to administer. They don't need to verify the code, just that it produces the correct result. Mind that "correct result" should be sufficiently…

The only people who are going to bother solving your puzzles are the ones who are desperate for a job- not the people you want. Qualified candidates have lots of opportunities at places that respect their time, and don't pretend an easily googleable problem is an indication of performance.

Doesn't have to be something horridly complex.

Just enough to show basic competency.

A shell one-liner, a brief function in a programming language, some basic domain knowledge.

Those people you request send a code sample or their Github profile.

You've already knocked off about 75-90% of the applicant pool.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#295

Post by iforonedisagree »

crasshopper wrote: post #257
danneu wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the monolithic decision of university shouldn't be forced upon us when we're teen-aged and entrenched in dogma.

Maybe the people who think college is a waste of time should try to reach young people with that message. (career day at a nearby school? online forums young people hang out on?)

he's not allowed near schools...

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#296

Post by [deleted] »

kitsune_ wrote: post #164
impendia wrote: post #16

I am in my first year as a mathematics professor at the University of South Carolina. Having moved here from Stanford, I've noticed several things. (1) Many students are woefully underprepared. In my calculus classes I have found that a great many of the students have not mastered high school algebra. And these are the students who pass our placement exam, and aren't obliged to take one of our many algebra and precal…

To be fair, many math professors have the didactic abilities of a monkey. I remember a professor and made no sense whatsoever. You felt that he was bored teaching Analysis and decided that he'd do everything but. At one point he was talking about his theoretical work on the Riemann-Zeta function, on another point he talked about his childhood memories. He did this every lecture, hopping back and forth to what he was…

[deleted]

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#297

Post by Retric »

learc83 wrote: post #209
bricestacey wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Including room and board in the equation is generally misleading when discussing the cost of education (even if a required cost for first-year freshmen). It's a requirement for living regardless of whether you're in college. Discounting room/board, GSU is $9k and Harvard $44k.

>It's a requirement for living regardless of whether you're in college. No it's not. Most college students are young enough that they have the option of living with parents. If you're 19 and live with your parents your cost of living is close to 0, but you can't do that if you're forced to live on campus (even if just Freshmen year for most schools). Additionally going to college full time is has opportunity costs. I…

Transportation to and from a nearby state school plus food is not free even if your living with your parents. 5$ a day in food * 7 and 15$ a day in gas, maintenance, parking, etc * 5 days = 110$ a week * 16 weeks = 1760$ a semester. I went to a state school and adding a 45 minute commute each way was not worth the ~3-4k /year cost savings.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#298

Post by javert »

cli wrote: post #91
javert wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my perspective, you guys have it backwards. I was screwed in some of my college courses because I did not have enough calculus background, I only had algebra.

Why did you not take the introductory calculus courses then?

There wasn't time. If I had taken extra time, or if I had known my major earlier enough, I could have. However, the expectation was that I would not take an intro calc course.

I live in a state where there is a big educational disparity between urban and rural areas. Unfortunately, nobody cares. The best universities are geared to sync up with where the urban students get at the end of high school, instead of the rural ones (like me).

The point is, if some high schools start skewing their courses towards "more algebra, less calculus," those students may be at a disadvantage unless/until colleges catch onto the trend.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#299

Post by impendia »

jsnrkd wrote: post #266
impendia wrote: post #16

I am in my first year as a mathematics professor at the University of South Carolina. Having moved here from Stanford, I've noticed several things. (1) Many students are woefully underprepared. In my calculus classes I have found that a great many of the students have not mastered high school algebra. And these are the students who pass our placement exam, and aren't obliged to take one of our many algebra and precal…

I'm a 2010 Computer Science Alumnus from USC and I can attest to the lousy market for Software Engineers in Columbia. Your job choices are pretty much insurance companies, consulting, the state or moving away. This equates to nowhere. There's practically no startup market or cool software products here in the capitol city. Not to mention scarce funding for software. It's hard to be entrepreneurial when you're crushed…

Just today I was talking to this guy who was a serial entrepreneur out in Silicon Valley, and got hired by USC's business school to teach entrepreneurship. Apparently there is at least a small startup community here, and he is trying to grow it.

This guy has balls, and he definitely seemed to know what he was doing. I was very impressed. Would be happy to put you in touch if you like -- my contact info's in my profile.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#300

Post by mkramlich »

rdtsc wrote: post #208
jmathai wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4 years and $50-100k of debt is in no way an efficient way to surface those signals. I agree that some things like research can't be done online. But I don't think those will remain at the university either. Graduate/research degrees must represent such a small % of a university's revenue that when the majority goes away they simply won't be able to survive. Just ask the RIAA if they can survive by selling mp3s when…

You are both right in some respect. First of all college teaches knowledge that you would need relevant to your major. Then college is a signal that you can learn stuff that is required (but not necessarily that you would like to learn). For example sometimes you might just not know what you need to know. Like math. I am glad I was forced to take calculus because I find it useful in my programming job, years later. T…

> , I agree with you, that all this should probably somehow be obtained for less than $100k.

There are efforts underway to provide the education, filtering, verification and signaling services for $0-10k per person. It can be done. We just have to cut out all the fat.

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