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The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

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Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#11

Post by gliese1337 »

Swizec wrote: post #5
bryogenic wrote: post #3

While this article talks about how bad things are I think an interesting solution was written up here [pdf] http://www.fixuc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/FixUC-Propos... The idea being you go to school for free and the University only makes money from a percentage of your future pay, thereby ensuring that it's students are actually prepared for the work force. More here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcro…

The problem I have with this is that university should NOT prepare you for the work force . Universities are awesome! We ruined them when we started thinking of higher education as preparation (or even requirement) for the workforce. University should prepare you to be a thinker, a scientist and just generally an educated person. As soon as it becomes vocational the whole point is lost. We don't need to "fix higher e…

I see that as an argument that we do need to fix higher ed. We need to do some refactoring for good separation of concerns, and clearly delineate that these over here are special institutions for research and critical thinking and most people don't have any reason to go to them, and those over there are the institutions that will specifically teach you employable skills.

It's essentially impossible to ensure that you never improve your employment opportunities while engaging in Pure Education or to ensure that you never develop critical thinking skills while in a vocational program (and it would not be desirable to do so anyway), but we could certainly more clearly delineate the intent of different programs and institutions. And then people could just pay for the experience that they actually want, rather than bundling them together.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#12

Post by gliese1337 »

MaxGabriel wrote: post #9
gliese1337 wrote: post #6

Many people, me included, frequently complain about all of the politics required to get the least bit of funding for anything from my university. Then I read something like this and that kind of trouble suddenly seems much better than the alternative. According to NCES[1], the average total cost per year of attendance at a 4-year private institution in 2009-2010 was $32,475. The cost for BYU was $4,290[2]. There's to…

This disclaimer was on the BYU website. Do you know how much that is? "* A significant portion of the cost of operating the university is paid from the tithes of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Therefore, students and families of students who are tithe-paying members of the Church have already made a contribution to the operation of the university. Because others will not have made this contribution,…

Yes, I do. That's why I quoted the price for non-LDS students. The price for tuition for LDS students, as listed on the same page, is about half of that; but, as the disclaimer says, you also have to take into account that they're paying an additional 10% of their total income.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#13

Post by ntkachov »

Swizec wrote: post #5
bryogenic wrote: post #3

While this article talks about how bad things are I think an interesting solution was written up here [pdf] http://www.fixuc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/FixUC-Propos... The idea being you go to school for free and the University only makes money from a percentage of your future pay, thereby ensuring that it's students are actually prepared for the work force. More here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcro…

The problem I have with this is that university should NOT prepare you for the work force . Universities are awesome! We ruined them when we started thinking of higher education as preparation (or even requirement) for the workforce. University should prepare you to be a thinker, a scientist and just generally an educated person. As soon as it becomes vocational the whole point is lost. We don't need to "fix higher e…

Great. They fail at that too. There have been a few studies that show that after 2 years of college, the difference in reading, writing, math, and critical thinking are negligible.

So if you're not good for the industry, you're terrible at what you're made for, what good are you?

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#14

Post by Swizec »

wyclif wrote: post #8
Swizec wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have with this is that university should NOT prepare you for the work force . Universities are awesome! We ruined them when we started thinking of higher education as preparation (or even requirement) for the workforce. University should prepare you to be a thinker, a scientist and just generally an educated person. As soon as it becomes vocational the whole point is lost. We don't need to "fix higher e…

I'm partial to this argument, but it only works if you allow for technical education that does provide people with the STEM (or other) skills needed for the workforce. I think higher education in the US is actually very broken. The best example I can think of that embodies that division of purpose is the UK, where you have Oxbridge and other elite institutions which function in the sense you are referring to, but you…

In Slovenia we used to "solve" this by having two levels of university education, one was more practical and another was more theoretical.

There were a lot of execution problems with the system, so they went ahead and ruined it further with the bologna reform. Now we still have two types of university educations (on the bachelor's level), except they're both very practical and the only difference there is that the one stemming from the old theoretical tier makes it harder to get into master's programs.

Which then in turn ruins the master's because it needs to be dumbed down to enable people taking the "easier" tier to follow along and graduate.

As a result, even the PhD isn't what it used to be anymore ... at least on my faculty (CS).

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#15

Post by forrestthewoods »

MaxGabriel wrote: post #9
gliese1337 wrote: post #6

Many people, me included, frequently complain about all of the politics required to get the least bit of funding for anything from my university. Then I read something like this and that kind of trouble suddenly seems much better than the alternative. According to NCES[1], the average total cost per year of attendance at a 4-year private institution in 2009-2010 was $32,475. The cost for BYU was $4,290[2]. There's to…

This disclaimer was on the BYU website. Do you know how much that is? "* A significant portion of the cost of operating the university is paid from the tithes of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Therefore, students and families of students who are tithe-paying members of the Church have already made a contribution to the operation of the university. Because others will not have made this contribution,…

I'm extremely impressed that the non-tithing rate is $4,710 and the tithing rate is $2,355 [1]. By comparison UCLA is $12,686 in-state tuition and $35,564 out of state [2].

[1] http://yfacts.byu.edu/viewarticle.aspx?id=85 [2] http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#16

Post by impendia »

I am in my first year as a mathematics professor at the University of South Carolina. Having moved here from Stanford, I've noticed several things.

(1) Many students are woefully underprepared. In my calculus classes I have found that a great many of the students have not mastered high school algebra. And these are the students who pass our placement exam, and aren't obliged to take one of our many algebra and precalculus courses.

(2) Many of the students aren't all that motivated, and resented me for asking a lot of them.

(3) Many of the students really are highly motivated, and have impressed me with their talent, and more importantly with their eagerness to learn.

But where will they work? There seems to be a relative lack of employers in South Carolina for talented, ambitious people. "Relative lack" doesn't mean none, but if I were advising, say, a talented and ambitious math and CS major who was graduating, my first advice to him/her would be to leave the state.

And yet, we continue to enroll 5,000 new students each year. I wish I felt there was a better light at the end of the tunnel for my students, at least one that didn't oblige them to move far from home. But I am kind of feeling a bit of a bubble.

For now, students continue to enroll in my calculus classes. Despite all their complaints to me, they busted their asses and I am proud of them. I hope that ten years from now they have reason to decide that their efforts were worth it.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#17

Post by ntkachov »

The other end of the problem is that kid's aren't even trying to flip their degree. Most kids consider college and experience not an investment.

You're kid is the worst investor on the planet. Because instead of majoring in Bioengineering they are majoring in psychology. And If they are majoring in psychology they aren't out to get the best damn research positions over the summer and publish papers, they are out working for the local supermarket.

I don't think most students have been asked "What return do you expect on the $100,000 you are going to spend on this degree".

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#18

Post by chadmalik »

$1 trillion in student loan debt you say? Simple solution, let the Fed print up and loan out 0% interest loans that roll over indefinitely and hand them out to students, just like the $16 trillion they handed out to the banks.

Oh wait, I forgot only bankers get free money in America.

Serious solution: repeal the law that says student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. Then lenders will need to do a serious assessment of whether the money they are loaning out can be paid back based on assessing the student.

I will also like to mention that somehow other nations seem to not require massive tuition fees. A basic college education should be MUCH lower cost.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#19

Post by Tsagadai »

First off, I know education != going to college. But let's be honest, some people who spend years of their life studying full time are probably learning more than people who watch a few videos after work. It takes a long time for most people to learn certain skills and without a dedicated place, timeframe and support network they probably won't learn those skills by themselves.

I don't think spending too much on education is going to cause the next bust of America. I think it will be a case of everyone else spending so much more than the US. In a services-based economy your main capital is your people. Many traditional universities will fail, because there are too many mediocre schools (also cheaper alternatives and expanding high-end schools). This will, however, result in fewer people studying anything past high school.

There are significant problems in the US higher education market but hoping for its demise will not fix things. Good luck competing in a hypothetical free market against far more educated populations.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#20

Post by ekianjo »

Swizec wrote: post #5
bryogenic wrote: post #3

While this article talks about how bad things are I think an interesting solution was written up here [pdf] http://www.fixuc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/FixUC-Propos... The idea being you go to school for free and the University only makes money from a percentage of your future pay, thereby ensuring that it's students are actually prepared for the work force. More here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcro…

The problem I have with this is that university should NOT prepare you for the work force . Universities are awesome! We ruined them when we started thinking of higher education as preparation (or even requirement) for the workforce. University should prepare you to be a thinker, a scientist and just generally an educated person. As soon as it becomes vocational the whole point is lost. We don't need to "fix higher e…

"Preparing for the Work Force" does not equal to "Vocational". After all, if universities do what you claim they should do, i.e. "prepare you to be a thinker, a scientist and just generally an educated person", you should become a useful member of society in the end and most probably you will be employed by someone who can use your skills.

This being said, I have a problem with the mentioned "solution". Why would you have to repay "based on 5% of their annual income, the University of California for 20 years"? - it seems like a ridiculous huge amount of money. It would make sense if it were a lot more limited, say, for the first 5 years of work, where your educational background still matters - after that threshold, I say your experience is more valuable than your academic background.

I'm with the author of the article. Let the new solutions invade the market to make current colleges rates obsolete. Change will occur by itself.

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