Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants • Hacker News Board

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#601

Post by mycall » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 5:44 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #554

shiroiushi wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Japan cannot get involved unless the US is directly attacked, their constitution and laws governing use of the JSDF are very explicit in forbidding any use other than defending themselves or the US. Japan can change this on a whim with one meeting of the legislature. You think Japan can't change its own laws? >If (when?) Taiwan gets China'd, that by itself cannot serve as a casus belli for Japan. Wrong. I don't know…

> Japan can change this on a whim with one meeting of the legislature. They literally cannot. > You think Japan can't change its own laws? It can't amend the Constitution just with a vote in the Diet; it requires a supermajority in both Houses followed by a popular referendum.

Constitutions can be ignored if everyone wants it so.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#602

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 5:46 PM UTC

btbuildem wrote: post #534

s1artibartfast wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't mean that lack of funing was the problem. If the company leadership can't find a way to get a return on the money, why not take it somewhere else? Intel investors sell and become Nvidia investors. It seems like people have the blind assumption RnD investment always has profitable returns and is the limiting factor. There are real institutional differences and limitations to what money can do. You can't d…

The perspective is the problem here. Looking from the angle of "investor" (ie, someone with capital) twists everything into a horrific hellscape. For example: Suppose I own you, my slave. I can work you for ten years, collecting the profits off your labour - or I can sell your kidneys, liver, eyes and heart for a large up-front profit. One approach is long-term sustainable, the other is not. But looking at it this wa…

I dont think it twists it. Even if the owner is the employee, the questions and calculus is the same.

If you work for a completely employee owned coop with a profit, would you reinvest it for less money tomorrow?

You can even take money out of it and talk about goods. IF your coop job runs a profit, would you rather get 2 free hams this year, or choose to wait and instead get 1 free ham next year.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#603

Post by echelon » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 6:36 PM UTC

_heimdall wrote: post #559

whimsicalism wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say that to people with cystic fibrosis or muscular dystrophy who are getting real, lifesaving treatments now that were simply not available a few years ago. Never mind that the world is not constant - we need innovation on the climate front if we want to stay in a stable environment that doesn’t require more sophisticated adaptation. Making those worst off better without making everyone else poorer would be much fas…

> Say that to people with cystic fibrosis or muscular dystrophy who are getting real, lifesaving treatments now that were simply not available a few years ago. Its an unfortunate fact of life that we can't build a utopia with no illness or suffering. We have developed many solutions for different medical conditions over my lifetime and I'm truly happy for those helped. Over the same time, though, we've discovered and…

> Its an unfortunate fact of life that we can't build a utopia with no illness or suffering.

That is not a fact.

Progress is accelerating, and we need to keep pushing. It's the quintessential virtue.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#604

Post by _heimdall » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 6:51 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #603

_heimdall wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say that to people with cystic fibrosis or muscular dystrophy who are getting real, lifesaving treatments now that were simply not available a few years ago. Its an unfortunate fact of life that we can't build a utopia with no illness or suffering. We have developed many solutions for different medical conditions over my lifetime and I'm truly happy for those helped. Over the same time, though, we've discovered and…

> Its an unfortunate fact of life that we can't build a utopia with no illness or suffering. That is not a fact. Progress is accelerating, and we need to keep pushing. It's the quintessential virtue.

You honestly believe we can invent our way into a utopia with no illness, no poverty, etc?

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#605

Post by sgift » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 7:15 PM UTC

4gotunameagain wrote: post #582

rabite wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US led NATO expansion lead to the war in Ukraine, and Europeans are paying the price. This is the Russian propaganda of 2 years ago, and we know it is a lie because Putin went on camera and told us so himself. When asked by Tucker Carlson why he invaded Ukraine he gave a half hour history lecture telling us about its history of Russian occupation. Putin justifies his murderous invasion by pointing to former borders…

You cannot dismiss something as "propaganda" or with a reason "Putin said so". In the same interview Putin said that if the US had not broken the promise to Gorbachev to not expand the NATO eastward, the war would not have happened. I am not an American with no serious understanding, I live in an area that used to be Soviet Union. Everybody knows you should not corner a wild beast.

> You cannot dismiss something as "propaganda" or with a reason "Putin said so".

If provided without evidence? Yes, you can. What's presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

> Everybody knows you should not corner a wild beast.

Nobody cornered Russia, Russia decided that it wants its old colonies back. Most of them were wise enough to long before ask NATO to protect them this time, Ukraine unfortunately had trusted Russia when it said it will honor Ukraines independence and now pays a heavy price for it.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#606

Post by gen220 » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 7:23 PM UTC

_heimdall wrote: post #556

moate wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like you’re agreeing with the statement. What is your syntactic point here? That the taxpayer has nothing to do with the decision making is irrelevant the point you responded to. They still pay for it.

Technically we haven't paid for new spending in tax dollars since Clinton was in the White House, its hard to say taxes pay for something when its paid for with debt. That said, my point was that the tax payer isn't really paying for it when the tax payer has no say in what is being paid for. If the taxes are collected either under false pretense, or no pretense at all, for what the money will be spent on then the ci…

Acknowledging the complexity inherent in how the U.S. gov't finances initiatives.

However, eventually, the buck stops at the taxpayer.

Yes, the federal gov't issues bonds to finance their activities (i.e. deficit spending), but the creditworthiness of the U.S. is intrinsically supported by the federal government's capacity to collect taxes from its citizens.

Eventually, "we the people" foots the bill. It might be amortized over decades and deferred more years still, but it's still a debit to "we the people" of $8.5B in the ledger.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#607

Post by HarHarVeryFunny » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 7:39 PM UTC

sevagh wrote: post #501

HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but those are CPU libraries, but what has grown NVIDIA into a $2T company wasn't building CPUs - it was building processors specific to this new and exploding field of ML/AI, which grew out of them building processors (GPUs) specific to the growing field of realtime PC-based gaming... Is the problem that Intel saw themselves too narrowly as in the CPU business rather than as in the compute business? I've no ide…

I mean, if your benchmark is "not being as successful as NVIDIA", then yes, a lot of companies are failures.

You're missing the point - it's not about comparing Intel to anyone else, but rather about Intel's missed market opportunities. They make processors but missed all the new market opportunities for processors.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#608

Post by _heimdall » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 7:57 PM UTC

contrarian1234 wrote: post #568

_heimdall wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preparing for supply chain issues during wartime and peacetime look very similar other than defence spending. Simplifying supply chains and reducing dependencies helps whether your concern is war, a pandemic, or economic change. We put chips in almost everything today. If we can live without chips them so be it, but assuming we'd rather not feel the full impact of have zero chips for whatever reason we'd be smart to…

What your proposing would basically entail countries indefinitely subsidizing a huge fraction of their economies so that everything is made domestically. You would just keep doing it and keep waiting for a war. It would be incredibly inefficient and make things significantly more expensive and your nation would fall behind (see North Korea). More importantly, by eliminating economic interdependence you create a much…

Why do you assume it must be driven by subsidies? Changes in demand can move the needle too, if our consumers prioritize domestic production it wouldn't matter if technically someone could import it for cheaper.

If you are going government intervention, they could reach for tariffs and import taxes rather than subsidies. Forcing prices high enough for domestic production is painful at first but would eventually work all the same.

I fully agree with you that too much of our current infrastructure is dependent on China and other countries. It isn't really a problem if we aren't concerned with major shocks though. It sounds like the difference is that I see the risks high enough to invest in domestic production if possible, you see that solution as unrealistic and that we're better off avoiding/preventing all shocks.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#609

Post by count » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 8:02 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #265

count wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are not those kinds of factories, and it's not 'easy' to train for. And Americans are surely WILLING to do the work, but have no idea how. If it was so goddamned easy to build a chip fab, they'd be all over the place - everybody needs them, and they're extremely strategic.

Is it that the work is impossibly skilled or that there’s only so much demand to go around and the capital costs to build a state of the art fab is just astronomically high?

I think it's a lot of both.

Like fighter jets - they're very, very hard to fly and also expensive to build and maintain.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#610

Post by coliveira » Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 8:24 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #498

rhelz wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recall, it takes years to build these fabs. Fortunately, people will be more likely to spend years in grad school training for these jobs, if they know that when they graduate there will be fabs to hire them. Rebuilding is a chicken and egg problem, but it’s not as hard as defeating the axis powers in WWII. If this country has the Will to do something, it’s gunna get done.

This is harder than defeating an enemy militarily. Defeating someone militarily is relatively simple to do; and every country figures it out from necessity. It is an expensive process, but ultimately mainly about deciding that the high price is worth it (and if the country can afford it/has the industrial base to sustain the effort, but neither of those things can be changed in a conflict). Building a profitable indu…

Also remember that the US was at the top of its industrial power during second WW. This time has passed long since. Nowadays it would have a hard time outproducing China and Russia, so I don't think that even a world war would be a solution (not considering the fact that a new WW could be the end of the world itself).