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Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

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Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#501

Post by sevagh »

HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #408
sevagh wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Intel has been consistent with their specialized CPU DNN libraries and whatnot for years. MKL and the likes are pervasive in modern deep learning stacks. Pretty sure they've captured as much of the AI/ML business as CPUs possibly can. Also, by gaming do you mean gaming consoles or gaming PCs? Because Intel is popular in gaming PCs also.

Sure, but those are CPU libraries, but what has grown NVIDIA into a $2T company wasn't building CPUs - it was building processors specific to this new and exploding field of ML/AI, which grew out of them building processors (GPUs) specific to the growing field of realtime PC-based gaming... Is the problem that Intel saw themselves too narrowly as in the CPU business rather than as in the compute business? I've no ide…

I mean, if your benchmark is "not being as successful as NVIDIA", then yes, a lot of companies are failures.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#502

Post by roenxi »

eddiewithzato wrote: post #450
WWLink wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly it blows my mind they were able to give control of one of the most important industries in the world over to a foreign country like that.

That’s the power of slave labour. Global economy is really modern day slavery. When you are making trillions in USD in the USA, paying someone in china $2 a day would’ve been an Egyptian pharaohs dream.

Those "slaves" have generally become quite wealthy. The median wage in Taiwan is close to the UK (it has been higher in the past), and China has moved out of poverty and steadily improving which is a pretty reasonable proxy for all of Asia (India has some catching up to do, but they'll get there).

This is the same tired argument that was made when the US pushed these jobs off the continent - if the very low wage jobs are allowed exist; eventually enough wealth will be generated that nobody needs to do them. Those sweatshops are in fact a path to prosperity. In some sense it is a cosmic win that all the capital was developed in Asia because they needed it more, but that probably wasn't the sort of charity that policymakers intended at the time.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#503

Post by 4gotunameagain »

Abroszka wrote: post #490
4gotunameagain wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> US led NATO expansion lead to the war in Ukraine, and Europeans are paying the price. As an Eastern European, I cannot thank the US enough for pushing NATO. It makes me feel safe. I'm just sad that they could not get Ukraine into NATO before all this madness started.

The prospect of regional wars or worse makes you feel safe ? Do you think that if Ukraine was not being courted by US that it would've been invaded like that ?

Multiple political analysts, US ones included, say that this would not have been the case.

Wars are only good for those in power, in both sides.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations...

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#504

Post by nebula8804 »

TuringNYC wrote: post #410
WWLink wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly it blows my mind they were able to give control of one of the most important industries in the world over to a foreign country like that.

>> Honestly it blows my mind they were able to give control of one of the most important industries in the world over to a foreign country like that. The engines of capitalism only look 1 quarter ahead. And the politicians who support them only look up to the next election. Unless you are majority or largely controlled by your founders, who care about building a good legacy.

Sounds like there is a market opportunity for long term disrupters. We are seeing it on the high end (SpaceX, Tesla) and on the low end a bit (Origin USA). Maybe if you can examine each industry infected by MBAs and see which ones have had enough quality fade caused by their rot to maybe disrupt?

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#505

Post by xcv123 »

sevagh wrote: post #500
xcv123 wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Intel doesn't have and has never had a GPU line worth writing home about That is my point. Emphasizing the earlier statement: "They missed the gaming market".

Your point is bad. Ignoring the fact that Intel's bread and butter is the CPU, of which they have a dominant gaming marketshare, is obtuse.

They missed the GPU market (AI/ML/Gaming) and the console market. Hence they lost all of that to Nvidia and AMD. Both of those companies now have a bigger market cap than Intel.

How is this so difficult to understand? It is very simple, not obtuse, unless you are autistic.

Nvidia market cap is $2.26 Trillion.

AMD market cap is $290 Billion.

Intel market cap is $178 Billion.

AMD and Nvidia used to be a tiny fraction of Intel.

You guys are getting autistically stuck on this irrelevant detail about CPU popularity in gaming PCs and missing the bigger topic of the discussion. But even in that niche, Intel has lost significant market share to AMD.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#506

Post by fransje26 »

lucubratory wrote: post #474
SmellTheGlove wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do better than that flinging burgers at Dicks here in Seattle. That’s wild. For something that requires a trip to Taiwan for training, which I imagine makes it not an easy job, why does it pay so little? I’d think retention would be important if the training is that intensive.

It's because in Taiwan that's standard compensation for this field, and for that specific project it's TSMC. They don't want to pay US rates if they can avoid it, and it's possible that their company would be unprofitable if they had to.

> They don't want to pay US rates if they can avoid it, and it's possible that their company would be unprofitable if they had to.

Ha, ha, ha. No.

Let's see, from Wikipedia. 2022 data:

- Number of employees: 73,090

- Net income: US$27.67 billion

Which gives us: 27.67e9/73090 = 369,407.57

So, just looking at their net income (which already takes into account the salary costs of said employees), they could afford to pay every employee US $370,000 a year before being unprofitable.

Between US $50,000 and US $370,000 there is quite some margin for improvement. And clearly, the low wages they pay have nothing to do with the risk of being unprofitable.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#508

Post by Abroszka »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #503
Abroszka wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US led NATO expansion lead to the war in Ukraine, and Europeans are paying the price. As an Eastern European, I cannot thank the US enough for pushing NATO. It makes me feel safe. I'm just sad that they could not get Ukraine into NATO before all this madness started.

The prospect of regional wars or worse makes you feel safe ? Do you think that if Ukraine was not being courted by US that it would've been invaded like that ? Multiple political analysts, US ones included, say that this would not have been the case. Wars are only good for those in power, in both sides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations...

> Do you think that if Ukraine was not being courted by US that it would've been invaded like that ?

Invaded? Probably not. Becoming a second Belarus? Yes. Overall it would have meant a Russia - NATO border closer to me. I prefer an Ukrainian - Russian NATO border far, far more.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#509

Post by shiroiushi »

laborcontract wrote: post #397
eitally wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a silly anecdote and I have a hard time believing chip fab line workers are too much different from those in other types of high-tech (where I spent 15 years working on test automation & quality systems). Some smart folks, for sure, but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background. A lot of management had strong technical education, but the vast majority of line workers are just following simp…

You're missing the broader point here which is that TSMC pays roughly $50k/year for people with these skills. Sure, you may be able to find the talent pool, but at what price?

I think an important question here is: how exactly can TSMC afford to pay $50k for people with these skills? And why is that impossible in the US? I think this comes down to relative cost-of-living differences: the US is just too expensive to live in these days. Taiwan is not a super low-cost-of-living country by any means, but the US has gotten ridiculously expensive compared to most other peer nations, and this means it's pricing itself out of the market with anything where it needs to compete.

Personally, I think America's reliance on cars and its suburban layout is a big part of this. Workers in Taipei don't need to own a car to get to work, and the overall infrastructure cost per capita is much lower.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#510

Post by [deleted] »

fransje26 wrote: post #506
lucubratory wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because in Taiwan that's standard compensation for this field, and for that specific project it's TSMC. They don't want to pay US rates if they can avoid it, and it's possible that their company would be unprofitable if they had to.

> They don't want to pay US rates if they can avoid it, and it's possible that their company would be unprofitable if they had to. Ha, ha, ha. No. Let's see, from Wikipedia. 2022 data: - Number of employees: 73,090 - Net income: US$27.67 billion Which gives us: 27.67e9/73090 = 369,407.57 So, just looking at their net income (which already takes into account the salary costs of said employees), they could afford to pa…

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