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Is the Job Market Dying?

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Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#141

Post by antisthenes »

zer00eyz wrote: post #8

No, it is not. For those of you who are new here (aka didn't live through the 2000 bubble) welcome to a shitty job market. 1. Your best bet to get a job is your network. If you were a clock puncher, if you didn't go above and beyond, if you aren't the person who is gonna make the co-worker who vouches for you look good... you are not gonna get much help in your network. 2. The next best bet is to either a) start your…

> Your best bet to get a job is your network. If you were a clock puncher, if you didn't go above and beyond, if you aren't the person who is gonna make the co-worker who vouches for you look good... you are not gonna get much help in your network.

Regarding this...I was the guy on both ends of the spectrum. The Rockstar that goes above and beyond and the guy who was punching the clock (sometimes a little too early). It made no appreciable difference in the quality of my network - it is still essentially non-existent, since none of my peers or ex-peers have much influence over hiring decisions.

My best shot at networking into a job is through a personal friend who works in a non-tech sector at a high level position. He's probably the only person who can actually get my resume seen by hiring people out of several hundred that I have met over my lifetime.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#142

Post by antisthenes »

codethatwerks wrote: post #82
pokstad wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s called hustling. Not everyone makes it, but putting in extra effort improves your odds. It’s pretty amazing to me that this is now considered controversial.

Given you are happy to work say 60 hours a week, what is the optimal use of the extra 20. For some it might be free work for their employer in return for something. Example might be in financial trading etc. to get a bonus or raise or promotion in a shop that is killing it. For some it might be leetcode and reading everything on levels.io and teamblind. For some it might be active investing for example property renov…

> But remember 1000hours a year is a lot to bet on your company or colleagues vouching for you and being in a position where that matters.

Yeah, at 50/hr that's $50,000 for a chance of someone vouching for you in the future that may never come to pass.

There's also the chance that maybe they were the manager that made you work 60hrs in the first place, so they don't see you as going above and beyond.

Whoopsie, you just wasted 1000 hours of your life.

No thanks. I'll get the job on my own merit.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#143

Post by hnthrowaway0328 »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #118
hnthrowaway0328 wrote: post #92

It is very bad for juniors and new graduates. It's fine for seniors and good for seniors who have good skills and connections.

> It's fine for seniors and good for seniors who have good skills and connections. This has very much not been my experience. (I imagine we're both drawing from personal experience, so I guess what we really want is some solid data.)

Yes personal and a few colleagues. I wish you good luck.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#144

Post by bzhang255 »

richrichie wrote: post #86
ryandrake wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SEO for resumes has been a thing for at least a decade. It’s dystopian and dehumanizing. You can only imagine how bad it is going to get when AI gets to screen, interview, and hire; totally autonomously. I’m sure companies are begging for this: cutting their entire recruiting budget would surely return at least 0.01% to the almighty shareholders.

This has been the case since professional HR came into being in tech, and people (mainly women) with no domain background were given a major role to play in shortlisting candidates.

The gender comment feels unnecessary.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#145

Post by axpy »

antisthenes wrote: post #142
codethatwerks wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given you are happy to work say 60 hours a week, what is the optimal use of the extra 20. For some it might be free work for their employer in return for something. Example might be in financial trading etc. to get a bonus or raise or promotion in a shop that is killing it. For some it might be leetcode and reading everything on levels.io and teamblind. For some it might be active investing for example property renov…

> But remember 1000hours a year is a lot to bet on your company or colleagues vouching for you and being in a position where that matters. Yeah, at 50/hr that's $50,000 for a chance of someone vouching for you in the future that may never come to pass. There's also the chance that maybe they were the manager that made you work 60hrs in the first place, so they don't see you as going above and beyond. Whoopsie, you ju…

You do you but don't complain if you end up having a harder time during economic downturn. Everything in life is about risk-reward and going the extra mile is about tipping the scale in your favor. To be fair, don't think op advocate for putting 60h every week. It's about being passionate about what you are doing and sometime just being available for your coworker outside of working hours can be enough. In my professionnal career, it was fairly obvious which colleagues was more than just clocking in and who I would be happy to recommend or hire on the spot.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#146

Post by piva00 »

zer00eyz wrote: post #102
codethatwerks wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with #1. Not entirely but it is about perception. Working an extra 10-20 hrs a week for free in return for a chance but no guarantee of a vouch is in itself a bad deal. So while you may have reasons for working long hours, hoping someone has your back is not a great one. Unless you have known them since you were 8 or something and even then.

If you have a job and they are hiring. Two former colleagues come in. Bob: he comes in, he does his work, he goes home. He's a good productive developer. Jane: She comes in, does her work, it's always documented and well tested. She is happy to roll up her sleeves and help the people around her out. She will pause to help you even if it means she gonna finish up at home. Your boss asks you: Your call who do we hire.…

And don't be Jane either, extending your working hours at home just to help someone out of your normal duties is a recipe for an eventual burnout.

The balance is in being both: good, productive, amicable, helpful to others while also knowing that you deserve a life outside of work.

This infatuation with killing yourselves for work (mostly Americans but also in Brazil and some other cultures) have is really not healthy, to yourself and to other workers that you put under pressure because you do more than what you're paid for. You're not being a great employee, you're being an exploited employee, and leaving the door open to normalise this exploitation to others that might have other priorities after working hours.

From my time with leading teams I wouldn't hire Jane, I have done it before and eventually the team falls apart because others feel pressured to work more than they are being paid for/willing simply to keep up with the Janes of the world, it crumbles team morale.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#147

Post by fileeditview »

zer00eyz wrote: post #102
codethatwerks wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with #1. Not entirely but it is about perception. Working an extra 10-20 hrs a week for free in return for a chance but no guarantee of a vouch is in itself a bad deal. So while you may have reasons for working long hours, hoping someone has your back is not a great one. Unless you have known them since you were 8 or something and even then.

If you have a job and they are hiring. Two former colleagues come in. Bob: he comes in, he does his work, he goes home. He's a good productive developer. Jane: She comes in, does her work, it's always documented and well tested. She is happy to roll up her sleeves and help the people around her out. She will pause to help you even if it means she gonna finish up at home. Your boss asks you: Your call who do we hire.…

And then the company just lays off Bob and Jane and thousands of others. Now Jane is angry because she committed a lot of her personal time for the company but was laid off anyways..

Don't be Jane.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#148

Post by anal_reactor »

nytesky wrote: post #90
PheonixPharts wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rest left tech for good. This is an important reality check for many people. I entered tech in 2004, during the immediate aftermath of the dotcom crash. At that time software engineers got paid well, but not insane. Additionally, every software engineer I met was passionate about writing code. Honestly, around 2019 I was really missing those days. The field has become flooded with people looking for a high payi…

I sympathize with your perspective, when most programmers were really nerds was a magical time. I do wonder if we are indulging in an “eternal September” mindset though.

The times when IT department smelled like pizza, sweat, and Mountain Dew lol

To be honest I don't think we'll ever go back to this. The only reason why this existed was that programming was socially unattractive, so developers self-selected to be people with certain personality characteristics. Once the society recognized the importance of IT jobs, it started pumping all sorts of people into the industry. There's no coming back, unless a) programming becomes a bad career choice again or b) all people get the luxury of working jobs that interest them

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#149

Post by drewcoo »

PheonixPharts wrote: post #75
zer00eyz wrote: post #8

No, it is not. For those of you who are new here (aka didn't live through the 2000 bubble) welcome to a shitty job market. 1. Your best bet to get a job is your network. If you were a clock puncher, if you didn't go above and beyond, if you aren't the person who is gonna make the co-worker who vouches for you look good... you are not gonna get much help in your network. 2. The next best bet is to either a) start your…

> The rest left tech for good. This is an important reality check for many people. I entered tech in 2004, during the immediate aftermath of the dotcom crash. At that time software engineers got paid well, but not insane. Additionally, every software engineer I met was passionate about writing code. Honestly, around 2019 I was really missing those days. The field has become flooded with people looking for a high payi…

> I entered tech in 2004, during the immediate aftermath of the dotcom crash.

I entered in 1999, when there were plenty of jobs mostly filled with people who liked paychecks a lot more than coding. It was hard to find jobs doing anything hard or nerdy in the sea of webmasters.

I remember working at startups in the mid-late oughts after the bubble burst and the industry was awash in get-rich-quick, gimmicky companies. Those founders had learned the lessons of the dotcom bubble: make your money and get out before it happens again! There was a VC slot-machine for quick, happy exits. And if you don't do well at the slot machine, well you've learned important leadership lessons, so start another startup.

If there was a golden age of nerds, it must have happened before I was in the industry. But, on examination, I'm not sure those actually existed either.

I think it's worth focusing on the work and atmosphere and how makers get stuff done, but I balk at about appeals to former glories. Make Software Great Again? Hmph.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#150

Post by drewcoo »

zer00eyz wrote: post #102
codethatwerks wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with #1. Not entirely but it is about perception. Working an extra 10-20 hrs a week for free in return for a chance but no guarantee of a vouch is in itself a bad deal. So while you may have reasons for working long hours, hoping someone has your back is not a great one. Unless you have known them since you were 8 or something and even then.

If you have a job and they are hiring. Two former colleagues come in. Bob: he comes in, he does his work, he goes home. He's a good productive developer. Jane: She comes in, does her work, it's always documented and well tested. She is happy to roll up her sleeves and help the people around her out. She will pause to help you even if it means she gonna finish up at home. Your boss asks you: Your call who do we hire.…

Preferring stabile predictability is not a bad thing.

It's just something we pretend cannot happen in software.

Most industries don't want anything like software's "death march," "sleep under your desks," "eat pizza" cultural ideals. Well, pizza is maybe ok once in a while.

Who's going to burn out, Bob or Jane? Bosses, often completely untrained bosses who just "know" how to boss, say they want Jane, but they're probably better off with Bob. Assuming they want stable long-term businesses, of course.

In your scenario it's likely that Jane becomes a boss soon and hires people with her own "work ethic." That sucks. Don't get Janed!

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