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Is the Job Market Dying?

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Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#101

Post by acdha »

noirbot wrote: post #52
spamizbad wrote: post #11

This person seems to be sharing anecdotes about the Data Science job market. That field, which exploded over the last decade, has experienced a rapid contraction. Data teams have shrunk and contain far fewer traditional “Data Scientists” and lean more heavily on engineers who orchestrate and plumb data around. Data Scientists have become the “HTML programmers” of the tech bubble. My advice: take a pay cut and pivot t…

Yea, I feel like "Data Science" was always a Zero Percent Interest phenomenon. It's the software company version of Dogecoin or GameStop or AMC. If you've got free money, why not throw 10mil at the moonshot of discovering a diamond in the rough of your data that revolutionizes your business. For the last 10 years, every data team I've been adjacent to has had a near infinite budget, hired more people than the rest of…

I think that’s a bit harsh – but only so much, as I’ve had to explain basic stats literacy to several consultants – but there’s a common factor to many “AI” initiatives: some executives really want to be able to tell their buddies that they’re doing amazing things, and often believe there are huge untapped opportunities to make or save money which all of the employees they don’t trust haven’t mentioned.

In reality, of course, there probably just isn’t that much money at play so the high-budget approach is unlikely to break even, and more critically it’s unlikely that people are prepared to change how the organization makes decisions. I’ve known some people who worked for places where they had data showing solid improvements but it either hit politics or was simply small enough that their executives didn’t want to go with it because it wasn’t the magnitude they’d promised to justify the data science program.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#102

Post by zer00eyz »

codethatwerks wrote: post #68
zer00eyz wrote: post #8

No, it is not. For those of you who are new here (aka didn't live through the 2000 bubble) welcome to a shitty job market. 1. Your best bet to get a job is your network. If you were a clock puncher, if you didn't go above and beyond, if you aren't the person who is gonna make the co-worker who vouches for you look good... you are not gonna get much help in your network. 2. The next best bet is to either a) start your…

I disagree with #1. Not entirely but it is about perception. Working an extra 10-20 hrs a week for free in return for a chance but no guarantee of a vouch is in itself a bad deal. So while you may have reasons for working long hours, hoping someone has your back is not a great one. Unless you have known them since you were 8 or something and even then.

If you have a job and they are hiring. Two former colleagues come in.

Bob: he comes in, he does his work, he goes home. He's a good productive developer.

Jane: She comes in, does her work, it's always documented and well tested. She is happy to roll up her sleeves and help the people around her out. She will pause to help you even if it means she gonna finish up at home.

Your boss asks you: Your call who do we hire. You're not fucking picking Bob.

Dont be Bob.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#103

Post by ohdannyboy »

esafak wrote: post #30
paxys wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get rejected by the first 5-10 companies you apply to then you need to take a step back and figure out what you are doing wrong, because spamming the same resume to 1000 more companies isn't going to change anything. 5 strong leads is infinitely better than 1000 weak ones.

You don't have any feedback to improve your approach other than the fact that you did not get a response.

Is there anyone in your network you can ask? Even reddit is willing to give you feedback.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#104

Post by zer00eyz »

nytesky wrote: post #90
PheonixPharts wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rest left tech for good. This is an important reality check for many people. I entered tech in 2004, during the immediate aftermath of the dotcom crash. At that time software engineers got paid well, but not insane. Additionally, every software engineer I met was passionate about writing code. Honestly, around 2019 I was really missing those days. The field has become flooded with people looking for a high payi…

I sympathize with your perspective, when most programmers were really nerds was a magical time. I do wonder if we are indulging in an “eternal September” mindset though.

I have been theorizing that they all get FAANG jobs now.

Free everything, stock options, good pay....

Crush the competition before it gets its feet under it. It isnt that we dont have as many nerds, they are all just "locked up".

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#105

Post by ohdannyboy »

paxys wrote: post #15
myth_drannon wrote: post #7

She brings an example of a person who after sending 75 applications considers changing fields. On Reddit people are sending more than 1000 applications to get a job.

If you get rejected by the first 5-10 companies you apply to then you need to take a step back and figure out what you are doing wrong, because spamming the same resume to 1000 more companies isn't going to change anything. 5 strong leads is infinitely better than 1000 weak ones.

My company is hiring a senior Python dev and we've rejected at least 95% of applications so far. Many weren't even Python devs, most weren't senior (no, getting that title 2 years out of college doesn't count) and some had resumes so off-putting we just said "this person is full of shit." We actually discussed adding a survey question that read "Answer 'no' to this question" to see if they even read the page. So many freaking shotgun applicants.

I wonder how many of those people are saying "I've applied to X jobs and nothing!" Had they gotten feedback or maybe read the job listing they wouldn't have added our posting to their volume count.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#106

Post by acdha »

beauzero wrote: post #99
acdha wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d add one other option: look outside of tech. I knew people who were hit by the dotcom bubble pretty hard but ended up getting jobs in government, academia (I left for a computational research lab myself), non-profits, and high-touch but not tech businesses (e.g. a friend bailed to a law firm - they were flush with cash but none of the partners knew how or wanted to run the IT side of things.). I’d especially add t…

I would agree with this for state work as well. Alabama, because Montgomery is super cheap, is a very good option. I will warn you though...the red tape can take a while. Fill out the paperwork or call the local contract recruiters. We find most of our people that way. They come in on contract, which I did, and convert to government. Depends on the department but once you are in it is fairly easy to move around. DOT…

Yeah, I mentioned federal because that’s where I have experience but I know more people who went to state level agencies, libraries, etc. Nobody gets rich that way but you also don’t get asked to work unpaid overtime or mysteriously laid off when you turn 50, either, and if you have any reason to be in a different part of the country outside of a tech hotspot that might be an easy way to stay near family, too.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#107

Post by cjbgkagh »

There seems to be some survivorship bias in the advice people are giving. I think it is very possible that we will never see that tight of a labor in tech ever again - even without AI.

On the economic side it's more difficult to control inflation than it was in previous downturns so there isn't the option of dropping interest rates to the floor. There isn't much room to lower reserve requirements for banks either. I think stimulus measures will be largely ineffectual and the inflation produced increasingly unpopular. So it looks like the pending recession will not have the cushioning that we've had in the past and may be longer and more painful as a result.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#108

Post by zer00eyz »

fragmede wrote: post #55
zer00eyz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Absolutely nothing wrong with wanting or needing a 9-5, Kids, life, have these things. Just make sure you are hitting your marks, that your helpful that your gonna roll your selves up and get shit done. If you have to leave, then leave, bow out. If you cant come in, or have to go cause you need to be at the gym or your spin class or D&D night. No one is calling you back right now. They remember that you put you fi…

Easy enough to say, but when you’re going against people that put their life aside to deliver, and you’re not getting called back, and you’re emptying that 401k… I mean, I get where you’re coming from, but also, shit.

>> and you’re emptying that 401k

Door dash, lyft, über, liquor store. NOTE: dont end up in a back room some where! You want to keep your social game sharp and you never know who will want a web site, or a pc repair, do these things too, your networking while your working.

Start a side project: Build a CLI tool, in a new language... Go, Rust, Zig are all sexy for this right now. It doesn't have to be perfect just launch. Stay in the game make yourself hot.

Your job is getting a job. You will work at least 5 hours a day at this till you have a job. Thats on top of Lyft, and side project...

If you have a life, or a family your gonna see them less till your back on your feet.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#109

Post by ZoomerCretin »

Every time Americans in tech mention applying to dozens or hundreds of jobs to get any position, Europeans are typically incredulous. This does not appear to be an issue on the other side of the ocean.

The problem is that the American hiring culture is uniquely toxic, and this is not at all limited to tech. I read stories of people who are desperately hiring but outsource the application and screening process, only to find the outsourcers put decent candidates in the bin for being from the wrong college, or merely having adjacent (and highly relevant!) experience but not exact experience. In other words, they will only accept a purple squirrel.

I once applied to a maintenance job at a facility where a relative works. No dice. I asked my relative. "Yeah they keep hiring construction contractors who quit immediately because they aren't paying enough, but I already talked to the manager and he would love to have you." Didn't matter, I couldn't get past the gatekeepers in HR. So because the "talent experts" didn't want to hire someone without carpentry experience to change air filters, or pay the carpenters they hired the $20/hour they wanted, they instead hired outside contractors for $150/hour.

In no other country would any of the above be tolerated. Even during the "job boom" of 2021, it was not as easy as it is in Europe to land a medicore position at a mediocre wage. We have a serious cultural issue with hiring and a high degree of arrogance on the part of those doing the hiring. I have no idea how this problem can even be tackled, except if maybe the federal reserve let the economy run hot for several years and forced employers to lower their absurd expectations.

Re: Is the Job Market Dying?

#110

Post by ZoomerCretin »

ClimaxGravely wrote: post #19
peterhadlaw wrote: post #3

Probably the most inhumane thing ever is having to make a recorded video of yourself answering personal life questions (presumably to be reviewed by a human from HR) only to actually be processed by an algorithm.

Is that really a thing happening these days? Sounds horrible.

Oh, it's been happening since 2020. I was offered a few of these HireVues, but I could never finish any because the experience of speaking to a screen like it's a person is so dehumanizing. I believe one of them was from General Motors.
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