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People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

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Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#211

Post by scarygliders »

exe34 wrote: post #66
scarygliders wrote: post #55

I don't hate the idea of living in car-free cities. It's cities I hate the idea of living in. Which is why I choose not to live in cities. And is why I need a car. Fuck cities, I hate 'em.

You don't need a car, you want a car. Plenty of people live without cars. Even outside cities.

This is entirely incorrect. The small village I live in, in Scotland? The really crappy and unreliable public transport? Yep. I need a car if I want to get to the Reasonably Priced Supermarkets and transport the weekly shopping back home conveniently, for example.

Or if I need to travel to Place of Work/customer sites.

And then there's the long trips around the country when I want to embark on them.

So please. Don't tell me I don't need a car. Reality, practicality, beats ideology any day.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#212

Post by dontlaugh »

epolanski wrote: post #9
asdajksah2123 wrote: post #3

People's aversion to change, even when the change is for something that is objectively better in every way, is really really annoying.

People mock the soviet way of building neighborhoods but it was miles better. Instead of extensive pointless suburbs where everybody has his house, they built huge 8/10 story buildings. The buildings were surrounded by parks, benches, places for kids to play. People aggregated a lot and everything was relatively close (building taller means you can build a lot closer to downtown). I have lived 6 months in Ohio, Colum…

I grew up in a similar bloc of flats in România, it was fine. It has indeed only gotten worse as the number of cars grew.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#213

Post by lucumo »

baq wrote: post #177
lucumo wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about "everything". I'm talking about jobs. Your job. Is your job so generic that almost everybody in your country can do it? Because that's what you would need for this to be realistic. Everybody living so close to enough jobs of the exact type they desire. Not just a job title, but the industry, the size and type of company, the salary level, the type of people, and a bunch of other things. And even…

You're so focused on driving I feel you're missing the point of designing the space so driving isn't necessary. Your axiom is 'work is far away'. But the point is it only happens if it's convenient to be far away. Design your city in a way it's convenient to be nearby and it'll be nearby. The problem is this design is completely at odds with private car ownership.

> But the point is it only happens if it's convenient to be far away.

No. The point is that "work" isn't a generic thing like "supermarket". A specific job is something that needs to fit your personality.

If you're the type of person that really digs working for big tech, you aren't going to find a job you enjoy in some small town. You can probably find a job maintaining the website of the local bank, but are you really going to think that's a good outcome?

Hell, for big tech the jobs aren't even commutable from anywhere if you are willing to commute by car. Or helicopter. But this problem goes for loads of people in loads of jobs. If you can commute further you have more choice. More choice gives you better odds at a job you like.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#214

Post by jimbokun »

nytesky wrote: post #88
lucumo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car". For most people it's not about the supermarket. Those are a dime a dozen and all the same. It's easy to provide those in sufficient amounts everywhere. Now try it with jobs. Not any job, but your job. Is it possible to have you…

We lived car free life in our 20s before kids. Groceries were a total PITA, maybe if you order a lot of delivery it’s fine, but we cook every meal and needed at least a granny cart at least once a week. And small grocers nearby had terrible vegetables; there is a lot of variance in supermarket quality. Maybe in NYC they have it figured out, but the trade off is everything cost crazy money. I commuted by bus for this…

> Maybe in NYC they have it figured out, but the trade off is everything cost crazy money.

Yes, living in Manhattan and Brooklyn, this was not a problem. Manhattan had a supermarket on every block. Brooklyn was a little farther, but the variety and quality of the food was excellent. This was a while ago, so don't remember how prices stacked up. Just that on an NYC salary, food was affordable for our family.

Lived in Tokyo and Osaka, but most of that time didn't have to cook much. But remember groceries being very accessible in walking distance.

Vacations in various cities in Italy and Paris, groceries were accessible, very high quality, and affordable.

So I think walkable grocery shopping is a good experience in NYC and big cities outside the US. But probably not great in the median US city.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#215

Post by yowzadave »

gadders wrote: post #122
CharlieDigital wrote: post #8

I was back in Taiwan last year after an extended absence. It's pretty amazing how easy it is to get around with a combination of the mass rapid transit (MRT) system and high speed rail (HSR). When I was last there, you still needed to take a bus or taxi from TPE to the city center. Now right from TPE airport, you can be in either Taipei city center in 30 minutes (MRT) or on the other end of the island in short order…

It sounds like you're saying it works for tourists. How would I get a massive CostCo shop home in Taipei (or similar large amount of shopping)?

In large cities you have many small supermarkets within a short walking distance from your house. It takes 20 minutes to do a quick shopping run to pick up what's needed. It's true that groceries are more expensive than at Costco...but you also don't need a massive deep freeze + pantry to keep all of your extra stuff, or a big car to carry it all in.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#216

Post by broguinn »

gadders wrote: post #190
underdeserver wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what a cargo bike is for.

It's mad that you can't see that strapping two kids and 8 bags of shopping into a cargo bike and cycling 10 minutes is far worse than doing the same errand by car.

This hasn't been my experience.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#218

Post by zuhsetaqi »

arlort wrote: post #199
gadders wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck walking 5 mins with 6 or 8 bags of shopping, a five year old and a baby in a pushchair. All these arguments for car-free cities are mostly supported by young, single and childfree urbanites.

You buy 6 or 8 bags or groceries every day?

Who wants to go to the store every day to buy food? Don’t you have a refrigerator?

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#219

Post by throw0101d »

underdeserver wrote: post #185
throw0101d wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> […] and personal liberty. Ironic given that driving is not a right—you need a license—and is highly regulated (e.g., insurance), while you can walk and cycle without any of those things. A cop can stop you in an automobile and ask for all sorts of documents, while doing the same walking or on a bus/tram/subway would probably be against most countries' constitutions. See the Oh the Urbanity video '“15-Minute City” C…

I'm pretty sure a cop can stop you and ask for ID in most of the world, even most of the west, for no reason.

> […] for no reason.

Not in Canada:

* https://ccla.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Know-Your-Rights...

* https://www.jeffreismanlaw.ca/when-do-you-have-to-identify-y...

* https://collettreadllp.com/know-your-rights/can-you-refuse-t...

Further, you don't have to carry ID and can't get into trouble if you don't have any if walking.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#220

Post by nytesky »

fennecbutt wrote: post #183
nytesky wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I think one big factor is it was a 1 mile walk in 32C degrees and swampy high humidity. It wasn’t a couple of bags, it was a cart of about 4 bags at least, including a gallon of milk, often including bags of flour, eggs, etc. https://www.amazon.com/LS-Folding-Shopping-Basket-Capacity/d...

Electric bike? Electric moped if you wanna stretch

This was 20 years go. I actually wish Segways became a thing. They could climb stairs, took up less area and could carry a heavy load balanced by the gyros.
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