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People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

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Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#71

Not even sure how you'd start off hating the idea. Less noise, less pollution, shorter commute, cheaper infrastructure, more green, more walking, improved health...I mean...just off the top of my head I'm thinking of tons of advantages. I can't think of a single disadvantage. The only reason I need a car is because the city / neighbourhood is configured around the expectation that everyone has a car.

Yeah basically the reason is that people are imagining their current built environment, which (especially in the US) is often solely and exclusively designed for automobiles, and imagine it without cars. It’d be a legitimate nightmare. What we need is gradual but rather aggressive pressure against cars that allow cities to adapt their services and layout. Congestion taxes and getting rid of parking are really great f…

The "gradual" part is hard because so many changes need to happen at once for a lot of these things to be feasible. Being able to get halfway to where I'm going affects me the same way as not being able to get there at all.

If you try to limit cars without adding better last-mile options (especially in the U.S. where huge portions of the population don't regularly walk even one mile at a time), people can't get anywhere, but if you try to roll out last-mile options without limiting cars, people either don't use them because they can still use cars, or they get hit by cars.

Add to that that everyone seems to feel time-crunched as it is (who do you know who feels like they're getting enough rest and doesn't describe themselves as "busy" any time you ask how things have been?), and the switch from "I could cover a mile in 2 minutes at 30mph vs. 20 mins at 3mph" and no one wants to change.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#72

Not even sure how you'd start off hating the idea. Less noise, less pollution, shorter commute, cheaper infrastructure, more green, more walking, improved health...I mean...just off the top of my head I'm thinking of tons of advantages. I can't think of a single disadvantage. The only reason I need a car is because the city / neighbourhood is configured around the expectation that everyone has a car.

Because that scenario isn't universal, and while you can't think of a reason, others can. Perhaps someone would rather shop at Costco because they've got a big family and need to buy items in higher quantities. You can't get a Costco in a small city setting, so you need to drive there, and even if you could, shared transit isn't amenable to getting home the types of things you buy at Costco. Or perhaps you wish to ha…

> Because that scenario isn't universal, and while you can't think of a reason, others can.

Thank you very much for this island of sanity inside this topic’s sea of bewilderment. These comment sections always seem to end with someone up asking: “How could anyone like things I don’t like??” and then a bunch of commenters just shake their heads and conclude “Those poor souls, they don’t know how they are suffering.”

I’m ambivalent about cars. I could take ‘em or leave ‘em. What I won’t compromise on is I will never voluntarily live in a dense urban environment or really any structure with shared walls on shared property, including apartments, condos, townhomes, anything like that. Since affordable detached single family homes can’t really be found right next to the places I need to go, like work and shopping, I am forced to have a car. Or more accurately, my strong preference in housing type necessitates a car.

It’s not that I want my car and like to drive 15 minutes to shopping. My car is a pain in the ass that’s always broken down and driving is dangerous. My car is the price I pay to avoid living in a city.

EDIT: And to be perfectly clear: I am not against cities building themselves toward car-freeness. I support citydwellers making their cities bikeable and walkable! I just don’t want to live there.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#73

People's aversion to change, even when the change is for something that is objectively better in every way, is really really annoying.

People mock the soviet way of building neighborhoods but it was miles better. Instead of extensive pointless suburbs where everybody has his house, they built huge 8/10 story buildings. The buildings were surrounded by parks, benches, places for kids to play. People aggregated a lot and everything was relatively close (building taller means you can build a lot closer to downtown). I have lived 6 months in Ohio, Colum…

That idea was a fork of the "seperated" areas for everything idea - and it failed spectacularly. No shops in the blocks, no thirds places. Commie blocks have done the idea of a liveable city a disservice.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#74
post #54
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car". For most people it's not about the supermarket. Those are a dime a dozen and all the same. It's easy to provide those in sufficient amounts everywhere. Now try it with jobs. Not any job, but your job. Is it possible to have you…

Sounds like moving should be made easier.

There's also questions around a partner. Can you only have relationships with people whos career is near your current employer?

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#75
post #54
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car". For most people it's not about the supermarket. Those are a dime a dozen and all the same. It's easy to provide those in sufficient amounts everywhere. Now try it with jobs. Not any job, but your job. Is it possible to have you…

Sounds like moving should be made easier.

That would be great, but your forebears locked in a great prop 13 basis decades ago and it would be worth more than your raise to give it up. Or you're in faux social housing in the form of a rent controlled apartment and don't want to give up that subsidy.

Or there simply aren't homes to move to that are closer because every municipality in the area has tried to build offices rather than homes since the 1970s. And thus the office park around your new job is itself so big as to require a car to traverse it.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#76
post #49
post #14

I would have expected the article to give some clear pool/metric/statistics about "people hate the idea ... ". There are indeed loud people and big interest groups that oppose car free cities, but I am not sure about "people" in general. Sure, you need means of transport and to be able to live, and you can't change things over night, but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away o…

> but if you would ask people "would you prefer to have a supermarket 5 minutes away or one 20 kilometers away" I doubt anybody would say "no I want only things far to be forced to use a car". For most people it's not about the supermarket. Those are a dime a dozen and all the same. It's easy to provide those in sufficient amounts everywhere. Now try it with jobs. Not any job, but your job. Is it possible to have you…

Yeah the problem is exactly the design of cities which make the car the best solution! The car is both the fastest and the most convenient if the roads are wide and the buildings are sprawled around. If you build the city tightly so it's easy to walk everywhere and everything is nearby, you a) don't need a car and more importantly b) there is no room for cars, this space is recovered for humans.

Disclaimer: my household owns two cars.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#77
post #66

I don't hate the idea of living in car-free cities. It's cities I hate the idea of living in. Which is why I choose not to live in cities. And is why I need a car. Fuck cities, I hate 'em.

You don't need a car, you want a car. Plenty of people live without cars. Even outside cities.

It's far more cumbersome outside of cities because of distance/time and unreliable alternate transportation. It might as well not even be an option, if one decides to go without then they are consciously absorbing the inconvenience because it's an important ideological issue to them.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#78

People's aversion to change, even when the change is for something that is objectively better in every way, is really really annoying.

People mock the soviet way of building neighborhoods but it was miles better. Instead of extensive pointless suburbs where everybody has his house, they built huge 8/10 story buildings. The buildings were surrounded by parks, benches, places for kids to play. People aggregated a lot and everything was relatively close (building taller means you can build a lot closer to downtown). I have lived 6 months in Ohio, Colum…

As a fellow (ex-)soviet from up north...

Soviet way of building sucked. You guys had it a tad easier, but in USSR-proper the standardisation sucked big time. It's damn fantastic now that building a custom private house in a legal way is doable, even without being a party elite. And soviet style of building wouldn't have happened without totalitarian control.

People aggregating and community is ripped away by interwebs. Although in USSR-proper it was iffy in any case. Yes, people spent a tad more time outside. But community building was very superficial and it was easy to get in trouble with KGB.

Some parts of society did enjoy the times. Other parts just enjoyed drinking their days away. And for many it was quite shitty.

Nowadays there're many more opportunities to enjoy the times. And I'm not talking about spending €€€ for fancy stuff. But the problem is there're too many modern distractions. Which would have been a thing wether soviet union survived or not. Just like soviets couldn't solve alcoholism which was the distraction #1 at the time.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#80
post #28

Not even sure how you'd start off hating the idea. Less noise, less pollution, shorter commute, cheaper infrastructure, more green, more walking, improved health...I mean...just off the top of my head I'm thinking of tons of advantages. I can't think of a single disadvantage. The only reason I need a car is because the city / neighbourhood is configured around the expectation that everyone has a car.

If your entire life is based around your car, it's your most important and powerful symbol of autonomy, wealth, and personal liberty. The prospect of someone in government deciding one day that the life you live is no longer welcome and your touchstone is evil is incredibly jarring, at the very least. If you also live in an area where you cannot imagine how you could possibly live without using your car frequently, t…

> […] and personal liberty.

Ironic given that driving is not a right—you need a license—and is highly regulated (e.g., insurance), while you can walk and cycle without any of those things.

A cop can stop you in an automobile and ask for all sorts of documents, while doing the same walking or on a bus/tram/subway would probably be against most countries' constitutions.

See the Oh the Urbanity video '“15-Minute City” Conspiracies Have It Backwards':

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpXqY_j1m1U

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