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People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

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Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#181

Post by eropple »

ghaff wrote: post #179
eropple wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is kind of overstating the case, tbh. I don't even live in Boston anymore--I live on the South Shore--but I drive my car maybe once a week, usually to Home Depot or rarely on a pilgrimage to Micro Center. I bought a place where I could walk to a commuter rail stop (it's how I get to my office) and multiple supermarkets are within walking distance, so I bring a backpack. About half a dozen restaurants wit…

I don't think we're disagreeing. I do need a car to go anyplace. But even if I only used it on weekends, I'd almost certainly own one because of, as you say, the friction associated with renting something.

Yeah, sorry, I meant to reply to 'smeej's post, not yours. :)

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#182

Post by jokethrowaway »

I lived without a car for a decade (London / other towns in the UK) and then I moved to a place in EU where I need a car but things are pretty close by. I can get a bus but they're not frequent enough to replace cars.

Overall the better quality of life (food, weather, access to seaside, real estate affordability, lower cost of living in general) weighs WAY more than having to drive a car or not.

It's a nice to have but not "life-changing". The important bit is to have the stores you need nearby so you don't have to drive 30m to get a coffee and 1h to go shopping. That's what wrong with the USA. Most of Europe has towns like this: you still need cars, but everything is close by.

Pros:

- I can go wherever I want - I can carry a lot more groceries / stuff - I don't stress about timetables anymore - No need to rent a car to do trivial work

Cons:

- Need to pay for car, insurance, parking - Higher risk of accidents - Risk of fines (speed limits are ridiculous, same for alchol tolerance)

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#183

Post by fennecbutt »

nytesky wrote: post #153
messe wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for contrast. I'm living a car free life in my mid-late 20s at the moment in Denmark, and I rarely ever order delivery. Supermarkets are close enough (I actually live above one, but were that not there, there are still three others within a five minute walk), that I rarely do a "weekly" shop and just buy my groceries when needed, most of which are of decent to high quality. It's not really much of an inconvenien…

Oh I think one big factor is it was a 1 mile walk in 32C degrees and swampy high humidity. It wasn’t a couple of bags, it was a cart of about 4 bags at least, including a gallon of milk, often including bags of flour, eggs, etc. https://www.amazon.com/LS-Folding-Shopping-Basket-Capacity/d...

Electric bike? Electric moped if you wanna stretch

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#184

Post by gadders »

dijit wrote: post #147
gadders wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're saying it works for tourists. How would I get a massive CostCo shop home in Taipei (or similar large amount of shopping)?

you must also ask the question why you want to make a huge shopping trip. If you lived in a world where accessing the shop was easy and convenient, and they stocked everything you need, and you didn't have oodles of storage at home to store it all: why would you even make such a huge shopping trip?

So your plan is for people to have a longer commute to work, work 8 hours at the job, have a longer commute home, and then have to trudge to a shop in the evening most nights of the week (in all weathers)? Sounds idyllic. Food shopping every night can replace going to the gym or playing with your kids. And if you're elderly and would rather drive - tough luck.

>>If you lived in a world where accessing the shop was easy and convenient, and they stocked everything you need, and you didn't have oodles of storage at home to store it all: why would you even make such a huge shopping trip?

Well obviously no-one is going to buy food they can't store. If they live in a tiny pod then by all means subsistence shop on a daily basis. However, the groceries will also be far more expensive.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#185

Post by underdeserver »

throw0101d wrote: post #80
Kalium wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your entire life is based around your car, it's your most important and powerful symbol of autonomy, wealth, and personal liberty. The prospect of someone in government deciding one day that the life you live is no longer welcome and your touchstone is evil is incredibly jarring, at the very least. If you also live in an area where you cannot imagine how you could possibly live without using your car frequently, t…

> […] and personal liberty. Ironic given that driving is not a right—you need a license—and is highly regulated (e.g., insurance), while you can walk and cycle without any of those things. A cop can stop you in an automobile and ask for all sorts of documents, while doing the same walking or on a bus/tram/subway would probably be against most countries' constitutions. See the Oh the Urbanity video '“15-Minute City” C…

I'm pretty sure a cop can stop you and ask for ID in most of the world, even most of the west, for no reason.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#186

Post by gadders »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #176
gadders wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck walking 5 mins with 6 or 8 bags of shopping, a five year old and a baby in a pushchair. All these arguments for car-free cities are mostly supported by young, single and childfree urbanites.

Not everyone can or has access to a car so people still have to and do manage that in the car-centric world you're advocating for as well. Except now it's more like walk a mile, wait for the bus, walk another mile.

Yes, and it is objectively worse.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#187

Post by fennecbutt »

Yup, everyone's gotta drive to the supermarket in their 9999999 tonne landtank SUV now.

It's so bad in London now, traffic is just becoming all SUVs. I'd love for them to be banned, but consumers want SUVs...so there'll never be a ban. There's not even that much space inside an SUV either!!

Back in NZ we actually used utes and other large vehicles for what they're actually meant for.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#188

Post by jimbokun »

bko wrote: post #84
CharlieDigital wrote: post #8

I was back in Taiwan last year after an extended absence. It's pretty amazing how easy it is to get around with a combination of the mass rapid transit (MRT) system and high speed rail (HSR). When I was last there, you still needed to take a bus or taxi from TPE to the city center. Now right from TPE airport, you can be in either Taipei city center in 30 minutes (MRT) or on the other end of the island in short order…

Do you have any children? I can't imagine car free city is good when you have two or more young children. For one, groceries are a problem as you likely need to stock more food to cook. Sure you can go to the store every other day but that takes a lot of time and is more expensive. Plus you are on a lot tighter schedule. Most people with kids race home to pick up children and don't want to stop by the store and schle…

In Manhattan, there was a supermarket on almost every block. Going to get groceries was only slightly longer than the trip to your refrigerator. I remember food being more expensive in Manhattan, but on a recent vacation to Paris, food was cheap and extremely high quality. Similarly in Italian cities a few years ago.

Things are structured differently in large cities around the world to accommodate a walking lifestyle.

As for schlepping baby stuff around, it's inconvenient but a relatively short period of your child's life in the scheme of things. But I do suppose it would be a grind if you have 3 or more children and going through that baby stage for many years on end.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#189

Post by dml2135 »

piva00 wrote: post #132
bko wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any children? I can't imagine car free city is good when you have two or more young children. For one, groceries are a problem as you likely need to stock more food to cook. Sure you can go to the store every other day but that takes a lot of time and is more expensive. Plus you are on a lot tighter schedule. Most people with kids race home to pick up children and don't want to stop by the store and schle…

> Do you have any children? I can't imagine car free city is good when you have two or more young children. For one, groceries are a problem as you likely need to stock more food to cook. Sure you can go to the store every other day but that takes a lot of time and is more expensive. Plus you are on a lot tighter schedule. Most people with kids race home to pick up children and don't want to stop by the store and sch…

On top of that… cars have only been around for about a century. Plenty of people raised kids before then.

Re: People hate the idea of car-free cities until they live in one

#190

Post by gadders »

underdeserver wrote: post #173
gadders wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck walking 5 mins with 6 or 8 bags of shopping, a five year old and a baby in a pushchair. All these arguments for car-free cities are mostly supported by young, single and childfree urbanites.

This is what a cargo bike is for.

It's mad that you can't see that strapping two kids and 8 bags of shopping into a cargo bike and cycling 10 minutes is far worse than doing the same errand by car.
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