Dress code: blue tie and male • Hacker News Board

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#131

Post by cgoddard » Sun, May 13, 2012, 5:03 PM UTC

Poiesis wrote: post #106

brown9-2 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset This is what makes it a non -apology.

>> So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset > This is what makes it a non-apology. reply This issue is one that my views have changed on over the years, and I've spent some time thinking about it. I currently do sometimes give that "non-apology", if you will. What else do I say when A) someone was hurt by something I said,…

There's nothing wrong with giving non-apologies in some circumstances. All it does is indicate in a diplomatic way that you weren't really sorry for what you did. If there was actually a really good reason for you to be sorry (ie. inviting an outspoken sexist radical to moderate at your event), that's a good reason for others to be pissed at your unapologetic response though!

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#132

Post by cgoddard » Sun, May 13, 2012, 5:16 PM UTC

stfu wrote: post #39

spindritf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? About as many times as we make powerful people apologise in public, especially when they're not really feeling guilty. And it's not always in that form, sometimes it's closer to Clinton's "mistakes were made". While most non-apologies are pretty standard, there is some variation and innovation.

This is a arguable subject. For me personally I prefer a company that took some risks with their presentation and failed, over one that had some human-bot-figure reading the corporate-lawyer approved cards. Sure, based on the narrative of that visitor the whole story comes across very negative, but then again I would find it utterly amusing to have some insult-comedian perform at a corporate event just to watch all t…

Theres a thing called professionalism. It is no more appropriate to invite the mocking of women in the workplace at a conference than it would be to mock multiculturalism, and support that only privileged white males deserve good jobs. It is not appropriate, and reflects very badly on the character and judgment of the execs at Dell. I wouldn't be surprised if this severely impacts their ability to recruit competent employees; no self-respecting man or woman should want to be employed by bigots.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#133

Post by dspeyer » Sun, May 13, 2012, 6:01 PM UTC

etherael wrote: post #92

polemic wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It is humour, whether or not it is taken as such is a different issue, when Bill Hicks gets up on stage and repeatedly tells people in advertising to kill themselves, he's not actually serious. Some might take that seriously but he's a comedian and it's humor." Firstly, the standard of conduct for the moderator of a corporate event is not the same as for a comedian working his routine in a club. Secondly, Bill Hic…

"This guy was not funny" is a different criticism to "This guy engaged in straightfaced serious misogynistic commentary" is a different criticism to "This guy should not have been hired for this particular venue". The only thing I have a problem with is the statement "This guy engaged in straightfaced serious misogynistic commentary". And that is a large portion of the criticism here, it's missing the point.

It's hard to be sure without a full transcript, but there doesn't seem to have been any actual humor. Or plausible attempt at humor. Just serious sexism in a flippant tone.

Why would people laugh at this? There are three possibilities:

* Classic Flippancy: The idea of women outside the kitchen is absurd to the point of humor.

* Self-Parody: This level of sexism is absurd, and we're laughing at the character with the microphone. This is Sacha Baron Cohen's "Borat" schtick and it's very hard to pull off because of Poe's Law.

* Commonality/Relief: This is what we've all been thinking but can't say because of the PC police. It's such a relief to be in a safe space where we can say it. This is the how most "observational humor" functions.

Options 1 and 3 are seriously misogynistic even (especially) if the audience laughs.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#134

Post by cbsmith » Sun, May 13, 2012, 6:24 PM UTC

aptwebapps wrote: post #96

gfodor wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this viewpoint. What is an apology? An apology, at least to me, is a statement that you regret an action you performed, and hence are saying that if you were transported back in time and could relive that moment, you would have acted differently. Saying you are "sorry people were offended" does not imply that you would have acted differently. If you do not wish you would have acted differently, do…

Well, for me personally, if I've offended someone seriously then that itself is reason enough for me to regret the action under most circumstances. I might regret it more if I am able to emphasize with their offense, but just offending them is enough. But if you're attempting to apologize in public, it doesn't make sense to try to explain that. You can say what you did was wrong, if you think so. If you do not then j…

> You can say what you did was wrong, if you think so. If you do not then just apologize simply without dressing it up with qualifications. It doesn't mean the apology is necessarily insincere.

If you don't specify what you are apologizing for, it leaves it to each listener to interpret what you feel sorry about. If you kill someone, and then say "I'm sorry", that could mean any number of things, "I am so sorry that I murdered him in his sleep so that I could take all his money", "I am sorry that while I was trying to take all his money, he caught me, so I killed him to stay out of jail", "I am sorry that I brought a gun with me to a robbery, because once he caught me, I had to either kill him or let him kill me", "I am sorry I was robbing him in the first place, I shouldn't steal, and killing him only made it so much worse", "that guy stole from me, and I was just trying to get the money back, but when he pulled a gun on me and said he'd kill me rather than let me take it back, I felt I had to kill him; in retrospect, I wish I had thought of another way to get the money back", "that guy was going to kill me then take my money, and I'm sorry that this was the case, but the only way I was going live was to kill him right then and there"....

While some of those examples do offer an explanation, one can be specific about what one is apologizing for without offering an explanation (indeed, I think that's exactly what Dell did, and in their case I believe that is shameful, because they ought to be sorry for a lot more).

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#135

Post by baddox » Sun, May 13, 2012, 9:21 PM UTC

hej wrote: post #71

baddox wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't. If you say something that offends somebody, what else is there to be sorry about? It's not like you killed somebody and offended somebody else, and are only apologizing the offending part. When you offend someone, that's the only bad thing that happens. Or, as comedian Steve Hughes puts it, nothing happens when you're offended.

Uhm, no, that’s not what apologies are about. When you apologize for something, you are also expressing regret for doing something. If you could decide again you would decide differently. In this case, a honest apology would be one where Dell apologizes for hiring that moderator: if we could go back in time and hire a moderator again, we wouldn’t hire that person. Maybe their apology for the offense is supposed to im…

I don't understand what you're saying. You say that an apology is an expression of regret, but then you say that Dell's apology isn't an expression of regret. Are you just saying that the Dell statement should have been more explicit?

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#136

Post by etherael » Sun, May 13, 2012, 9:22 PM UTC

dspeyer wrote: post #133

etherael wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This guy was not funny" is a different criticism to "This guy engaged in straightfaced serious misogynistic commentary" is a different criticism to "This guy should not have been hired for this particular venue". The only thing I have a problem with is the statement "This guy engaged in straightfaced serious misogynistic commentary". And that is a large portion of the criticism here, it's missing the point.

It's hard to be sure without a full transcript, but there doesn't seem to have been any actual humor. Or plausible attempt at humor. Just serious sexism in a flippant tone. Why would people laugh at this? There are three possibilities: * Classic Flippancy: The idea of women outside the kitchen is absurd to the point of humor. * Self-Parody: This level of sexism is absurd, and we're laughing at the character with the…

I agree, I am just saying it's abundantly clear that it's option 2. Look at the guy's website if nothing else.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#137

Post by baddox » Sun, May 13, 2012, 9:26 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #62

cbsmith wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think there are lots of cases where it is perfectly warranted. It's a big world; if you are on the world stage, it is quite difficult not to offend somebody no matter what you do. There are experts in the fields of diplomacy and etiquette who devote their careers to getting this stuff right, and usually even then there is someone offended about efforts to be so "proper". ;-) So, I think it is a perfectly v…

I don't understand this viewpoint. What is an apology? An apology, at least to me, is a statement that you regret an action you performed, and hence are saying that if you were transported back in time and could relive that moment, you would have acted differently. Saying you are "sorry people were offended" does not imply that you would have acted differently. If you do not wish you would have acted differently, do…

Your comment is contradictory. You start by saying that an apology implies regret. Then, you say that Dell's apology does not imply regret. Why not? If they're apologizing for offending people, then according to your first claim they must regret offending people, which means they would choose to not offend people if they were transported back in time. I'm not sure what more you want from Dell.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#138

Post by josephcooney » Sun, May 13, 2012, 10:28 PM UTC

chris_wot wrote: post #126

josephcooney wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I think so.

Yes. The story is that Kerry Packer, who used to actually watch the shows his network put to air, started watching it and after about 5 minutes and a number of segments of animals fornicating called the night shift operator and said "Get this shit off the air!". After which the Channel 9 logo graphics appeared, then it went to an ad break, after which they aired a rerun of Cheers . The host was Doug Mulray, who was f…

Thanks for the clarification Chris. As I said, I didn't watch the show. Apologies to Graham Kennedy for confusing him with Doug Mulray.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#139

Post by cbsmith » Mon, May 14, 2012, 1:16 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #135

hej wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhm, no, that’s not what apologies are about. When you apologize for something, you are also expressing regret for doing something. If you could decide again you would decide differently. In this case, a honest apology would be one where Dell apologizes for hiring that moderator: if we could go back in time and hire a moderator again, we wouldn’t hire that person. Maybe their apology for the offense is supposed to im…

I don't understand what you're saying. You say that an apology is an expression of regret, but then you say that Dell's apology isn't an expression of regret. Are you just saying that the Dell statement should have been more explicit?

I'm not sure he agrees that it is an apology.

I think it is more fair to say is that they expressed regret, but the only regret they expressed is that other people were offended by what they did. The conclusion is that if they had it to do over again, and they could find a way to do it without offending those people (keeping it secret perhaps?), they'd do it.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#140

Post by aptwebapps » Mon, May 14, 2012, 3:08 AM UTC

cbsmith wrote: post #134

aptwebapps wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for me personally, if I've offended someone seriously then that itself is reason enough for me to regret the action under most circumstances. I might regret it more if I am able to emphasize with their offense, but just offending them is enough. But if you're attempting to apologize in public, it doesn't make sense to try to explain that. You can say what you did was wrong, if you think so. If you do not then j…

> You can say what you did was wrong, if you think so. If you do not then just apologize simply without dressing it up with qualifications. It doesn't mean the apology is necessarily insincere. If you don't specify what you are apologizing for, it leaves it to each listener to interpret what you feel sorry about. If you kill someone, and then say "I'm sorry", that could mean any number of things, "I am so sorry that…

I didn't mean that you don't say what you're sorry for, just that it may not pay to be too specific in some cases.

Ideally we'd all say exactly what was on our mind all the time and no one would ever get hurt, but sometimes tact is important.

Also, in the case of something like killing someone you might well place a higher value on exonerating yourself to the maximum extent possible than on potentially (re)offending someone.