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Dress code: blue tie and male

elektronista.dk

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Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#61

Post by nigelsampson »

spoiledtechie wrote: post #24
orcadk wrote: post #17

Just to give a short recap of who this Mads Christensen guy is, coming from a Dane: His tag line is "Denmarks big show-off" and he basically markets himself as a provocative bragging show-off, always with the rolexes, sports cars, slick hair and better-than-thy appearance. He's not perceived as a comedian but rather as an entertainer hired for various corporate events - some obviously less successful than others. Unl…

Are we talking about the same Mads who created BlogEngine.Net? Just curious? I would hope not, but if so, my entire image of him got thrown out the door.

Thank you, I was wondering where I had heard the name before.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#62

Post by gfodor »

cbsmith wrote: post #46
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

I actually think there are lots of cases where it is perfectly warranted. It's a big world; if you are on the world stage, it is quite difficult not to offend somebody no matter what you do. There are experts in the fields of diplomacy and etiquette who devote their careers to getting this stuff right, and usually even then there is someone offended about efforts to be so "proper". ;-) So, I think it is a perfectly v…

I don't understand this viewpoint. What is an apology? An apology, at least to me, is a statement that you regret an action you performed, and hence are saying that if you were transported back in time and could relive that moment, you would have acted differently. Saying you are "sorry people were offended" does not imply that you would have acted differently.

If you do not wish you would have acted differently, do not apologize. If you do, then perform a real apology saying you made a mistake and wish to correct it. If you simply say that you regret others being offended, all you are really saying is you lament the fact there are people that exist that were offended by your statement. Ie, it is a shame that people disagree with you or are offended by your words, much like it's a shame that a stranger got a flat tire or that science has yet to cure the common cold. Ie, it's their problem, or at the very least, an existential observation of how you think things ought to be, not something that is your problem or responsibility to correct.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#63

Post by wvenable »

sambeau wrote: post #36
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

It's either 100% lack of spine or 100% no clue. Look at how well startups apologise when they get things wrong compared to long-established companies. They admit wrong and seek to put things right as soon as they are called on it. This is not just good PR: It's good morality, but it takes backbone. Startups, though, are still run by their founders: people who know what they started their company to achieve and what m…

I've been on hacker news long enough to know that many startups are just as bad at apologizing. Some established companies are very good making things right. I don't think you can generalize so easily.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#64

Post by chris_wot »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #52
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

But that's exactly what they're sorry for. It's not like Dell's going to say "We're sorry we hired a jerk." That implies that they meant to hire a jerk. "We're sorry you're offended" means "We didn't do this out of malice, but we recognize that it was hurtful regardless, and that's why we're sorry." I always get the feeling that what they're really supposed to do is grovel--to admit that it wasn't an honest mistake,…

Then it's not enough. If they aren't sorry for blatant sexism (despite Dell global policies) then they should be. And if they aren't they should lose sales. IMHO :-)

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#65

Post by MBlume »

This is beyond disgusting. How did the people in the room not simply walk out?

ETA: Scripts are good for these things. It's difficult, in the shock and confusion of the moment, to decide what to do. So, here's one script. When you're in a presentation, and a speaker starts talking like this (or talking about "gang-bang interviews" or whatever else) you stand quietly, and you leave. You tweet what happened. If there isn't a clear apology (and we haven't heard one from Dell yet) you don't attend the conference the following year. This is how we, as a community, communicate to one another what kind of behavior is and is not acceptable.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#66

Post by MBlume »

jsnk wrote: post #57
losvedir wrote: post #45

Wait, so is he a comedian MC'ing the event? If it's a roast or something, and he's poking at the fact that there's not a lot of women in tech: The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy As in, what are you guys doing to cause not a lot of women to be in IT. It's almost as if there's a quota! If that's the case it's still…

He's an act, the similar manner Christopher Hitchens was about religion and Jeremy Clarkson is about cars. Not that they are fakers, but their presentations are intentionally over the top and insensitive to arouse interest and entertain the audience. Danish Dell fucked up this time. This is really not the kind of PR Dell can afford to receive.

I don't recall Hitch ever being "over the top" about religion -- he simply called spades spades.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#67

Post by rsynnott »

philwelch wrote: post #38
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

Actually apologizing admits to wrongdoing, which opens one up to liability and other consequences. Not apologizing at all is seen as callous and only incites the mob against you. A non-apology apology is still enough to settle the mob but not enough to open one up to liability. The only downside is that it upsets intelligent people like you and I who are capable of actually parsing and understanding these kinds of st…

> Actually apologizing admits to wrongdoing, which opens one up to liability and other consequences.

I can't imagine that there are actual liability issues here; it's more than Dell (incorrectly, I suspect) thinks that using weasel words looks better than saying "oops, we're horribly thoughtless and incompetent".

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#68

Post by rictic »

stfu wrote: post #39
spindritf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? About as many times as we make powerful people apologise in public, especially when they're not really feeling guilty. And it's not always in that form, sometimes it's closer to Clinton's "mistakes were made". While most non-apologies are pretty standard, there is some variation and innovation.

This is a arguable subject. For me personally I prefer a company that took some risks with their presentation and failed, over one that had some human-bot-figure reading the corporate-lawyer approved cards. Sure, based on the narrative of that visitor the whole story comes across very negative, but then again I would find it utterly amusing to have some insult-comedian perform at a corporate event just to watch all t…

This wasn't someone who was telling insulting jokes just to get laughs. This was someone whose repeatedly stated and well known opinion is that a historically repressed group don't have an equal or valid place in the workplace.

It's not a joke by itself, it's joking of a kind with those bully makes while tormenting their victim in other ways.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#69

Post by tjmc »

kylemaxwell wrote: post #2

I'll keep an open mind about the company for now, because I've not found their side of the story (this occurred a few weeks ago), but Michael Dell should personally and sincerely apologize for his company. This doesn't match at all what I have long understood to be their internal culture.

Although Michael Dell is ultimately responsible, I think the blame here lies squarely with Dell's Danish office.

Dealing with cultural differences is a minefield for multinationals. To take an extreme example - imagine running a similar event in Kyrgyzstan, where the rural population has a charming tradition of kidnapping teenage girls and forcing them into marriage. Reckon a local MC there would be a pillar of progressive commentary?

One reason that Dell has regional offices is precisely to avoid offending the local population. If the Danish CEO said “To stay within code of conduct I don’t want to comment on what you just said. But you did a good job” then he should be harshly sanctioned and possibly fired. If he isn't called to account, well that is Michael Dell's responsibility.

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