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Dress code: blue tie and male

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Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#71

Post by hej »

baddox wrote: post #59
brown9-2 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset This is what makes it a non -apology.

No, it doesn't. If you say something that offends somebody, what else is there to be sorry about? It's not like you killed somebody and offended somebody else, and are only apologizing the offending part. When you offend someone, that's the only bad thing that happens. Or, as comedian Steve Hughes puts it, nothing happens when you're offended.

Uhm, no, that’s not what apologies are about. When you apologize for something, you are also expressing regret for doing something. If you could decide again you would decide differently.

In this case, a honest apology would be one where Dell apologizes for hiring that moderator: if we could go back in time and hire a moderator again, we wouldn’t hire that person.

Maybe their apology for the offense is supposed to imply that (presumably, since they are apologizing, they want people to not be offended, one option for them to prevent that is to not hire people like that in the future), but why not say that directly?

(I think the view that offense doesn’t matter and can be safely ignored is extremely damaging. And besides, it’s not as though offense is the worst thing about this. Dell gave someone the stage who legitimizes very weird views that would be disastrous if they became – even more – widespread in society or even the basis for policy. That’s why people are offended. And that’s a very good reason to be offended. Yes, words do matter.)

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#72

Post by hej »

philwelch wrote: post #38
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

Actually apologizing admits to wrongdoing, which opens one up to liability and other consequences. Not apologizing at all is seen as callous and only incites the mob against you. A non-apology apology is still enough to settle the mob but not enough to open one up to liability. The only downside is that it upsets intelligent people like you and I who are capable of actually parsing and understanding these kinds of st…

I’m not sure where (legal) liability comes in play here. I don’t think there is a way to successfully sue Dell for this (nor do I think there should be).

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#73

Post by polemic »

MBlume wrote: post #65

This is beyond disgusting. How did the people in the room not simply walk out? ETA: Scripts are good for these things. It's difficult, in the shock and confusion of the moment, to decide what to do. So, here's one script. When you're in a presentation, and a speaker starts talking like this (or talking about "gang-bang interviews" or whatever else) you stand quietly, and you leave. You tweet what happened. If there i…

After a recent experience of being confronted with sexism and, ultimately, not handling it how I feel like I should have, I think this is a really good idea. Having a script (or at least thinking about what I would do, in advance) would've made a big difference.

A lot of the time, our natural response is to freeze or act as if it didn't happen, and that's not ok. Raging on twitter after the fact is not nearly as effective as direct and immediate feedback.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#74

Post by dredmorbius »

unimpressive wrote: post #28

Review: Christensen is the best speaker I've ever heard, a paragon of equality. After hearing his deeply enlightened views on women in the workplace, my whole perspective on hiring and employee management changed. Absolutely recommended five stars A++. XKCD: http://xkcd.com/958/ EDIT: Let this be a lesson to other companies out there, vet the people you book for...anything.

Humor, irony, and subtlety, even with the xkcd link, are generally lost on the HN crowd.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#75

Post by unimpressive »

dredmorbius wrote: post #74
unimpressive wrote: post #28

Review: Christensen is the best speaker I've ever heard, a paragon of equality. After hearing his deeply enlightened views on women in the workplace, my whole perspective on hiring and employee management changed. Absolutely recommended five stars A++. XKCD: http://xkcd.com/958/ EDIT: Let this be a lesson to other companies out there, vet the people you book for...anything.

Humor, irony, and subtlety, even with the xkcd link, are generally lost on the HN crowd.

It's funny because that comment shifts every half an hour or so between getting a few upvotes and then getting a few downvotes.

Even if I end up with some downvotes in the end it's worth it just to watch the lovers and haters contest each other.

EDIT: It's too bad people can't leave a reason for up/down voting, it would be interesting to see weather people actually think I believe that, or if they just didn't think it was funny.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#76

Post by chromatic »

stfu wrote: post #39
spindritf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? About as many times as we make powerful people apologise in public, especially when they're not really feeling guilty. And it's not always in that form, sometimes it's closer to Clinton's "mistakes were made". While most non-apologies are pretty standard, there is some variation and innovation.

This is a arguable subject. For me personally I prefer a company that took some risks with their presentation and failed, over one that had some human-bot-figure reading the corporate-lawyer approved cards. Sure, based on the narrative of that visitor the whole story comes across very negative, but then again I would find it utterly amusing to have some insult-comedian perform at a corporate event just to watch all t…

I prefer a company that took some risks with their presentation and failed, over one that had some human-bot-figure reading the corporate-lawyer approved cards.

That statement almost makes it sound as if those were the only two options for presentations.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#78

Post by makeramen »

unimpressive wrote: post #75
dredmorbius wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humor, irony, and subtlety, even with the xkcd link, are generally lost on the HN crowd.

It's funny because that comment shifts every half an hour or so between getting a few upvotes and then getting a few downvotes. Even if I end up with some downvotes in the end it's worth it just to watch the lovers and haters contest each other. EDIT: It's too bad people can't leave a reason for up/down voting, it would be interesting to see weather people actually think I believe that, or if they just didn't think i…

I'm staying neutral on this one, but I can imagine that may people don't think this comment contributes much to thoughtful discussion of the topic. Promoting these comments, or even not downvoting them creates a culture where these comments become accepted. I can see a comment like this (if upvoted) easily starting one of those "pun trains" commonly seen on reddit.

I don't see anything specifically wrong with the ironic humor of the comment, HN does need to lighten up sometimes, but if we let one of these get upvoted... it will only lead to many more by precedent. The line has to be drawn somewhere. I personally wouldn't want to see a HN where each topic has 10+ "witty/ironic/humorous" comments. I go to reddit for that.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#79

Post by etherael »

I know it's fashionable to have a knee jerk reaction and not actually check backstory etc, but just quietly. http://www.madschristensen-foredrag.dk/mc/Aktuelt-og-media This guy is clearly a comedian / over the top on purpose, to say that he actually genuinely believes the purposefully crafted bullshit on display in this particular article is to say that Les Patterson from Australia actually thinks that it's appropriate to be a permanent drunken idiot, or Guido Hatzis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=domXumvTVI8 really thinks everything he says.

Actually, do US comedians have this brand of self deprecating over the top humor? Nothing springs to mind, perhaps this is why it doesn't translate well?

As to whether the choice of this guy was appropriate? Different question but even there you'd need to assume that the audience wouldn't "get" that this was all an act and honestly felt insulted by it. I guess it's already clear they've misjudged their audience but it maybe wasn't so obvious beforehand that this would actually be the result?

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#80

Post by shasta »

unimpressive wrote: post #75
dredmorbius wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humor, irony, and subtlety, even with the xkcd link, are generally lost on the HN crowd.

It's funny because that comment shifts every half an hour or so between getting a few upvotes and then getting a few downvotes. Even if I end up with some downvotes in the end it's worth it just to watch the lovers and haters contest each other. EDIT: It's too bad people can't leave a reason for up/down voting, it would be interesting to see weather people actually think I believe that, or if they just didn't think i…

Your comment is at the bottom of a long page, which adds latency to it being reviewed. When it's in the positive it gets downvotes by people who didn't think it was very funny and people who don't want to encourage that kind of joking. When it's negative it gets sympathy upvotes, like the one I just gave you.
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