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Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

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Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#91

Post by gnyman »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #42

It’s actually harder to do nothing and just watch things, it’s its own special kind of fatigue. I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.

A small anecdote, I learned/realised this when visiting CERN (many years ago) and seeing someone in the control room playing a computer game on a laptop next to his big displays. So I asked and they said something along the lines that yes, it's allowed because otherwise the people would fall asleep, especially during the night shifts when their job is just to sit there and let the experiment run an be ready to react if necessary.

This seems like a useful solution, but I guess it's hard to do as a policy as there is a fuzzy line between the game taking too much attention and not being interesting enough.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#92

Post by throwawaaarrgh »

theoreticalmal wrote: post #66
wlesieutre wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the “mostly self driving” car systems where the driver is expected to pay attention well enough to take over if needed

This is the worst of both worlds, I would (and do) rather just drive “manually”

Driving cross country in a car is actually the worst when you're in stop and go traffic, or cars keep slowing down and then speeding up. I can't wait to get my hands on adaptive cruise control because I get so aggravated and tired from having to shift and adjust speed. If I can just sit in one position and listen to comedy podcasts and audio books I do so much better

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#93

Post by auselen »

taf2 wrote: post #58
dataviz1000 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, I was a private yacht chef for 7 years. On long legs of a trip I had to hold watch at the helm for 3 or 4 hour shifts while everyone else rested for their watch. Staying awake while using auto pilot was a special type of mental anguish.

I did delivers up and down the Atlantic in 2000s I remember it being awesome. Granted I was 20 and like the time we got too close to a us aircraft carrier and they launched a helicopter that did a fly over to check us out that was pretty great. We also always had lines out to catch fish and let me tell you when that line caught something didn’t matter if it was your shift or not it was “fish on” everyone jumping out…

> captain could be pass out drunk and still dock the 70 footer without issue Brings up memories… This was same with my father, he stopped drinking later but when I was a teenager and stuck somewhere after midnight I would call home and he would say “sure buddy” and come pick me up. On the way back his eyes were almost closed and sometimes we would joke about how the car knows about the roads and can go way back home itself. He is too old now and actually has a 12 meter boat which can’t dock himself alone.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#94

Post by eesmith »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #89
aaomidi wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons the current "Self Driving" cars kinda suck. Majority of the time you're just not doing anything, but still have to be 100% attentive.

> still have to be 100% attentive. Starting absolutes is poor. This just an oxymoron. Highways are designed to take attention off. On a chill highway drive I’d guess most drivers are no more than 50% attentive, driver assist or not.

Perhaps you could interpret "100% attentive" as "at the same level of attentiveness as being without the current generation of 'self driving' technology"?

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#95

Post by cgeier »

sva_ wrote: post #67
jwsteigerwalt wrote: post #47

Until airlines cease to need a scapegoat, they will keep pilots in the cockpit.

I dont really know much of anything about aviation, other than being a passenger, but I feel like taking off and landing is still something that needs a pilot. I've been on some rough landings, and I don't think ML is quite there yet to do it.

You don't need ML to do this, there are already auto landing (and auto take off) systems that work very well. The hardest part is taxiing on the airport and taking part in air control procedures doesn't work at all AFAIK.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#96

Post by tasuki »

dataviz1000 wrote: post #87
taf2 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did delivers up and down the Atlantic in 2000s I remember it being awesome. Granted I was 20 and like the time we got too close to a us aircraft carrier and they launched a helicopter that did a fly over to check us out that was pretty great. We also always had lines out to catch fish and let me tell you when that line caught something didn’t matter if it was your shift or not it was “fish on” everyone jumping out…

We passed an aircraft carrier going up the East Coast while they were doing exercises. They radioed us and made it clear not to come close to the ship. I have video of fighter jets doing low passes over our yacht every 15 minutes or so using us as a practice target. Going South once, as we came towards the inlet at Fernandina Beach on the Florida, Georgia line, a nuclear submarine was leaving port. I was at the helm…

This is all very interesting and completely foreign to me!

> Coast Guard helicopter with a mounted machine gun pointed at me and a Coast Guard response (defender class) boat with a .50-caliber machine gun also fixed on me while they sat off our bow.

Why'd they do that?

> they said I should hold my position and not move.

Why?

> The sub came out with two large ships on each side with blast shields on the each ship.

...why?

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#97

Post by Ekaros »

gnyman wrote: post #91
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #42

It’s actually harder to do nothing and just watch things, it’s its own special kind of fatigue. I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.

A small anecdote, I learned/realised this when visiting CERN (many years ago) and seeing someone in the control room playing a computer game on a laptop next to his big displays. So I asked and they said something along the lines that yes, it's allowed because otherwise the people would fall asleep, especially during the night shifts when their job is just to sit there and let the experiment run an be ready to react…

Same must apply to many control jobs, including nuclear plants. They can run themselves for most of the time. And it is probably preferable if there is no fiddling on going.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#98

Post by tasuki »

thsksbd wrote: post #48
theogravity wrote: post #45

Not familiar with any of this - I'm guessing it's ok for one pilot to be asleep as long as there's another active one?

Happens all the time. Both asleep, though, is a big problem. About ten years ago there was a (Delta?) flight to Vegas (?) with both pilots asleep. They flew past their destination and went on their merry way until a flight attendant check up on them.

> flew past their destination and went on their merry way until a flight attendant check up on them.

That... doesn't seem like a great illustration of why both pilots asleep is a big problem :)

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#99

Post by Ekaros »

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #59
aaomidi wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons the current "Self Driving" cars kinda suck. Majority of the time you're just not doing anything, but still have to be 100% attentive.

I've found the self-steering of new cars to be not at all useful for the stated use case. In my car, the self-steering pushes back a bit and deviates from the course ever so slightly so that you have to keep your hands on the wheel. I'd rather steer it myself. But in those moments where I'm trying to find the UI for adjusting some climate setting, and I don't have my eyes on the road, that's when the self-driving is…

I think sweet spot is probably somewhere with adaptive cruise control and light lane assist. Too much beyond that and you have to be fully autonomous in all situations.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#100

Post by ephimetheus »

gnyman wrote: post #91
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #42

It’s actually harder to do nothing and just watch things, it’s its own special kind of fatigue. I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.

A small anecdote, I learned/realised this when visiting CERN (many years ago) and seeing someone in the control room playing a computer game on a laptop next to his big displays. So I asked and they said something along the lines that yes, it's allowed because otherwise the people would fall asleep, especially during the night shifts when their job is just to sit there and let the experiment run an be ready to react…

So we’re actually being told not to do this, even on night shifts, but I don’t think it’s actually being enforced. I did to some work on my PhD thesis while on shift, though.
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