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Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

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Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#61

Post by wlesieutre »

dataviz1000 wrote: post #51
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #42

It’s actually harder to do nothing and just watch things, it’s its own special kind of fatigue. I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.

For context, I was a private yacht chef for 7 years. On long legs of a trip I had to hold watch at the helm for 3 or 4 hour shifts while everyone else rested for their watch. Staying awake while using auto pilot was a special type of mental anguish.

Like the “mostly self driving” car systems where the driver is expected to pay attention well enough to take over if needed

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#62

Post by lazyasciiart »

amluto wrote: post #23
HPsquared wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike trains, there isn't one action that is basically always safe (stop the train). A dead man switch activating at the wrong time, could itself cause an accident.

That’s true, but there are plenty of other options. For example, a dead-man switch could: Send an alert via transponders that it has been activated. Maintain level flight but avoid terrain. (After a waiting period in which a pilot can deactivate this feature.) Or descend to a safe altitude if cabin pressure is lost. Activate a mode in which the plane could be remotely flown or directed to land itself. Alert flight cr…

The existing action is to maintain current settings. A flight in Australia flew across the continent that way, after (theory says) somehow depressurizing during takeoff so everyone passed out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Australia_Beechcraft_King...

IMO that story shows that unless you do the remote control option (which I see as unlikely) it doesn't matter what happens...what can anyone outside the plane do except crash it earlier?

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#63

Post by kalleboo »

The Guardian article [0] mentions

> One of the pilots had not rested adequately on the night before the flight, according to the report.

> “The second-in-command had one-month-old twin babies. His wife took care of the babies and he assisted while at home,” the report said.

More evidence of the importance of mandatory paternal leave.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/09/indonesia-open...

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#65

Post by lupire »

aaomidi wrote: post #44
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #42

It’s actually harder to do nothing and just watch things, it’s its own special kind of fatigue. I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.

One of the reasons the current "Self Driving" cars kinda suck. Majority of the time you're just not doing anything, but still have to be 100% attentive.

It really is comically reversed. Robots are far better than humans at watching for a long time and jumping in to help instantly with an acute problem when needed (like braking or swerving to avoid an obstacle). Humans are better at interpreting a complex scene and making a high level plan.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#66

Post by theoreticalmal »

wlesieutre wrote: post #61
dataviz1000 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, I was a private yacht chef for 7 years. On long legs of a trip I had to hold watch at the helm for 3 or 4 hour shifts while everyone else rested for their watch. Staying awake while using auto pilot was a special type of mental anguish.

Like the “mostly self driving” car systems where the driver is expected to pay attention well enough to take over if needed

This is the worst of both worlds, I would (and do) rather just drive “manually”

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#67

Post by sva_ »

jwsteigerwalt wrote: post #47

Until airlines cease to need a scapegoat, they will keep pilots in the cockpit.

I dont really know much of anything about aviation, other than being a passenger, but I feel like taking off and landing is still something that needs a pilot. I've been on some rough landings, and I don't think ML is quite there yet to do it.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#68

Post by fragmede »

aaomidi wrote: post #44
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #42

It’s actually harder to do nothing and just watch things, it’s its own special kind of fatigue. I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.

One of the reasons the current "Self Driving" cars kinda suck. Majority of the time you're just not doing anything, but still have to be 100% attentive.

In the case of Waymo, you're sitting in the back seat and don't have to pay attention to the driving if you don't want to.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#69

Post by stemlord »

baron816 wrote: post #27

Can someone explain to me why we still need pilots? Could we at least have pilots serve as a backup to a fully autonomous system?

There is no fucking way I'm stepping onto a commercial airliner without highly trained human beings at the helm. That is my SWE/"stemlord" take-- complex software systems, or at least the organizations that produce them, are generally not to be trusted with your life.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#70

Post by lupire »

zettabomb wrote: post #15
jxcole wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each pilot can have a button they must always press, if both are released loud tritones alarms and flashing will fill the cockpit, something no one can sleep to.

A proper deadman's switch can't just be a button - you could weight it down, or just fall asleep on top of it. Trains commonly use a pedal you have to hold down halfway. Not sure this is really the best idea though, as pilots typically need both hands (and usually feet) free to actually, you know, control the plane.

If the pilots are controlling the plane, they are doing detectable actions and pre-empting the dead person switch.
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