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Responding to Beggars

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Re: Responding to Beggars

#121

Post by ta12121 »

wilfra wrote: post #29

In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the greatest sympathy, and forces them to sit on the same corners begging day after day, month after month and year after year - and turn all of the money they collect over to them. If they steal any, they die. In return they are provided with the bare minimum subsi…

It's funny, in Dungeons and Dragons, "beggar" is the lowest ranking person in a thieves' guild.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#122

Post by eli »

barry-cotter wrote: post #79
coryl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are ways to help the homeless without giving out money. For example, volunteering at a soup kitchen, shelter, etc.

In the USA? No, there aren't. They're mentally ill or serious drug abusers. Also, your money can go a hell of a lot further and help a hell of a lot more people even in in the US. But you can save a life for about 800 dollars in the developing world. http://www.givewell.org/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/37f/efficient_charity/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_sepa...

Wait, so are you saying it isn't possibly to help homeless people in the USA? Or that they don't deserve help? Either way, I think you are very wrong.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#123

Post by pasbesoin »

twelvechairs wrote: post #85
Muzza wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartment…

Downvoting because its ridiculous to compare the situation in Sweden with that of Thailand (the difference is immense), because it engages in leftist bashing (I'm sure there must be very few 'leftists' if any who really say "lets build new apartments for foreign criminals whilst Swedes get nothing", although this is exactly what you imply they say), and because you claim to answer a complex and nuanced issue with a s…

> organized gangs of beggars

I'd say that that part is similar, and it is not something I was aware of. So, I find this informative and contributing to the discussion.

Some of the other language might be viewed as a bit slanted. Or it might be viewed as a bit ironic. Given that uncertainty, I didn't find it too extreme. (Although, I am in the U.S. and so separated from the particular circumstance, and my judgment/opinion is of limited value.)

P.S. I should add that I have not yet read all the ensuing responses, which I am now getting to and which might change my opinion somewhat. But, based just on the original comment, I think the above applies to it.

P.P.S. HN is getting way too political. Reading through this thread reinforces this impression. Makes me sorry to have commented on it. OTOH, I rather liked the description of RMS's approach, and I found it informative to read comments on the "industry" behind some of the world's begging. (To which begging, like many other commentors here, I have a hard time formulating a coherent response that I find helpful, practical, and coherent.)

Re: Responding to Beggars

#124

Post by photon137 »

Muzza wrote: post #73
Create wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your presumption is wrong. I gave examples of free movements of products, services and capital. If you are ready to accept these freedoms, you should also accept the other items packaged in this very same deal: the free movement of people. The Swiss also like to cherry pick the good stuff from the Europe, just like everybody. Not taking responsibility of the economic externalities, as the euphemism goes, is not susta…

> If you are ready to accept these freedoms Who says I am? I am not Ingvar Kamprad.

Democracy and freedom are double-edged swords by their very nature.You are perfectly entitled as an individual to reject those freedoms.

I think you as an individual then should be slapped with a visa requirement to visit all other nations in Europe. Then you'll have fun strutting around with your papers to all the different embassies - which I guess you'd certainly prefer than having foreign beggars around. Or you could stay in Sweden forever if you don't even want to do that. We certainly wouldn't mind.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#125

Post by anderse »

Muzza wrote: post #61
hej wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You (and I) are responsible if you are enjoying your privileges while – through no fault of their own - others suffer. Sweden and the west got rich through luck and exploitation. You are privileged. You are lucky. Recognize that and act on it.

I am certainly not responsible in any way for (for instance) Romania's poverty. There was this guy called Ceaușescu; he had a little bit to do with it.

While you basically built this country? It happens that Swedes who are actually paid to think(or paid at all) don't often share your views. This might be because they are not expecting life to be a free ride just because they were born here.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#126

Post by Muzza »

gioele wrote: post #117
Muzza wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? > If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets. I am actually kind of sad for that, because I'm sure you and I could in fact get along quite beautifully…

> Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets. No, I am not a Bulgarian or a Romanian. But yes, I am offended by people who use nationalities to denote groups of criminals. I am not that old, yet I have heard "Albanian", "Italian", "Spanish", "Polish", "Romanian", "Turkish", "Portuguese", "African", "Brazilian", "Senegalese", "Nigeri…

> No, I am not a Bulgarian or a Romanian. But yes, I am offended by people who use nationalities to denote groups of criminals. I am not that old, yet I have heard "Albanian", "Italian", "Spanish", "Polish", "Romanian", "Turkish", "Portuguese", "African", "Brazilian", "Senegalese", "Nigerian", "Egyptian", "Moroccan", "Chinese", "Arab" and many other demonyms used as an insult and to identify the latest and biggest threat to EU security and welfare systems. I find it difficult to think that all the Albanians, Italians, Spanish, Polish, etc., are all criminals. I am pretty sure that each country has its own fair share of criminals and that many of these flew to other countries in order to exploit their there-unknown cons, but I doubt that this warrants anyone the possibility to call out a whole nation as a problematic issue.

Straw man. I have never suggested that all Bulgarians (or Romanians) are criminals. For Christ's sake, I even acknowledge that the current beggars on the streets where I live AREN'T criminals!

> Isn't compassion part of human nature as well?

I pay a 30% income tax (and my employer pays an additional 30% in payroll taxes, which is of course simply a hidden tax on me) and then 25% VAT on everything I buy. This pays for much welfare. I think it's /exceedingly/ compassionate of me to give away such a large part of my income - certainly more than the Christian concept of tithe. My compassion is not endless, however. And neither is yours.

But I wonder, why aren't the Bulgarians compassionate towards their own countrymen? Why don't you criticize them?

> This is your problem, not foreigners' problems. Your police is subject to bribery from gangs from other countries, what is the most effective action? Fix your police system or kick out gang X waiting for gang Y to start bribing the police?

I never suggested it was the foreigners' problems. Please stop your fucking straw man arguments.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#127

Post by Muzza »

radu_floricica wrote: post #88
gioele wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, e…

I'm Romanian, and I have no problem with Muzza's comment. He's perfectly right. If anything, we can breathe a bit easier here in Romania with all the gangs gone to better countries. I do disagree though that deporting is the way to go. The problem is real, and shoving it under the carpet doesn't really solve much of it. What is needed is an EU-wide solution, and it needs to be well-thought and well implemented, becau…

> If anything, we can breathe a bit easier here in Romania with all the gangs gone to better countries.

Ha! At least two parties (the gangs and the Romanians in Romania) are profiting.

> I do disagree though that deporting is the way to go. The problem is real, and shoving it under the carpet doesn't really solve much of it. What is needed is an EU-wide solution, and it needs to be well-thought and well implemented, because the problem isn't easier.

Yes. My criticism concerns only various leftists who believe that Romania's (and Bulgaria's, etc) problems should be solved by Sweden alone.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#128

Post by Muzza »

anderse wrote: post #125
Muzza wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am certainly not responsible in any way for (for instance) Romania's poverty. There was this guy called Ceaușescu; he had a little bit to do with it.

While you basically built this country? It happens that Swedes who are actually paid to think(or paid at all) don't often share your views. This might be because they are not expecting life to be a free ride just because they were born here.

1) It does not follow from "I am not responsible for Romania's poverty" that I claimed "I built Sweden". Läs om, läs rätt. 2) I am not unemployed, nor paid to work with my hands. 3) Even unemployed people and manual laborers can have valid views on things, you elitist. 4) I never once mentioned wanting a free ride!

Re: Responding to Beggars

#129

Post by lucian1900 »

Muzza wrote: post #71
gioele wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, e…

> Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? > If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets. I am actually kind of sad for that, because I'm sure you and I could in fact get along quite beautifully…

I believe if you just call said vagrants/thieves what they are: gypsies, Bulgarians will be less likely to be insulted.

Us Romanians are more used to being confused with gypsies than Bulgarians, I guess. Gypsies even when to the trouble of renaming themselves to "Rroms", so they are more easily confused with Romanians.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#130

Post by dkersten »

Muzza wrote: post #47
wilfra wrote: post #29

In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the greatest sympathy, and forces them to sit on the same corners begging day after day, month after month and year after year - and turn all of the money they collect over to them. If they steal any, they die. In return they are provided with the bare minimum subsi…

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartment…

We have the same problems in Ireland. There was a documentary recently where they followed some of these people back to their homes in Romania to find that they owned mansions back home - the same people were begging and collecting social welfare here (some were collecting social welfare for children who either weren't even their own or weren't in the country).
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