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Responding to Beggars

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Re: Responding to Beggars

#71

Post by Muzza »

gioele wrote: post #69
Muzza wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartment…

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, e…

> Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals?

> If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism.

Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets. I am actually kind of sad for that, because I'm sure you and I could in fact get along quite beautifully. But the fact still remains: when I go out, I don't wish to be accosted by beggars. This is human nature.

> If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, experienced personally or know from local hearsay?

My bloody point was that vagrancy SHOULD be a crime. It ISN'T at present. (Also, the police are corrupt and willing to overlook crime when it suits them.)

> Do you also agree on the principle that the needs for every lawful person should be addressed regardless of their country of origin?

Certainly not. I find it totally absurd that if I (a Swedish citizen who's paid a lot of tax to the Swedish state) were to wind up on the streets, the Swedish state could quite possibly refuse me even a bed at a homeless shelter, at the same as a foreigner should be given his or her own apartment, no questions asked. This is not just. It's borderline evil.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#72

Post by Muzza »

mpusr wrote: post #66
Muzza wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am certainly not responsible in any way for (for instance) Romania's poverty. There was this guy called Ceaușescu; he had a little bit to do with it.

that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human. This is the point. A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one. Your nationalist attitude is baseless. You happen to be born in sweden, they happen to be born in romania. If the tables were turned I'm sure you wouldn't…

> that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human.

I have never denied anyone their humanity, only insisted that I shouldn't have to support them.

> A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one.

If we are all equal, why do the left insist that a Romanian arriving in Sweden should have more entitlements than a Swedish citizen?

Re: Responding to Beggars

#73

Post by Muzza »

Create wrote: post #64
Muzza wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your point? Do you think I'm somehow ignorant of what the EU means? I know about the free movement of people - I reject it since it has negative consequences for me! For some reason you are unwilling to come right out and simply say what you think about IKEA, thus leaving me to read your mind. Presumably your argument goes something like this: "Ingvar Kamprad is Swedish, Ingvar Kamprad used forced labor in th…

Your presumption is wrong. I gave examples of free movements of products, services and capital. If you are ready to accept these freedoms, you should also accept the other items packaged in this very same deal: the free movement of people. The Swiss also like to cherry pick the good stuff from the Europe, just like everybody. Not taking responsibility of the economic externalities, as the euphemism goes, is not susta…

> If you are ready to accept these freedoms

Who says I am? I am not Ingvar Kamprad.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#74

Post by Create »

Muzza wrote: post #61
hej wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You (and I) are responsible if you are enjoying your privileges while – through no fault of their own - others suffer. Sweden and the west got rich through luck and exploitation. You are privileged. You are lucky. Recognize that and act on it.

I am certainly not responsible in any way for (for instance) Romania's poverty. There was this guy called Ceaușescu; he had a little bit to do with it.

It is an open secret, that as all dictators, the Ceaușescus were also maintained by powers outside Romania. His wife was elected as member of the Illinois Academy of Sciences, besides multiple doctorate honoris, ie. from the Faculty of Sciences of Nice (and if I remember correctly, member of the Académie). Seemed like an approval of Western Europe, so to me it seems, that they had a little bit to do with the current situation. Actually little has changed since at the core, despite appearances.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#75

Post by jawns »

I know how important Richard Stallman is to the tech community, and I appreciate his tech-oriented stuff ... but I'm kinda getting bored with seeing his LiveJournal posts on the HN homepage.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#76

Post by Muzza »

Create wrote: post #74
Muzza wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am certainly not responsible in any way for (for instance) Romania's poverty. There was this guy called Ceaușescu; he had a little bit to do with it.

It is an open secret, that as all dictators, the Ceaușescus were also maintained by powers outside Romania. His wife was elected as member of the Illinois Academy of Sciences, besides multiple doctorate honoris, ie. from the Faculty of Sciences of Nice (and if I remember correctly, member of the Académie). Seemed like an approval of Western Europe, so to me it seems, that they had a little bit to do with the current…

And once again the Swede* must atone for the sins of others (such as the Académie française).

* Or more generally: white Western European.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#77

Post by barry-cotter »

gioele wrote: post #69
Muzza wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartment…

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, e…

> If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force.

The Swedes likely don't have a problem with Bulgarians. He says Bulgarians and Romanians so he means gypsies. He may not know this but even if he does he's Swedish so saying that it's a gypsy problem would get him in shit socially.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/myqdy/why_do_euro...

Re: Responding to Beggars

#78

Post by photon137 »

jawns wrote: post #75

I know how important Richard Stallman is to the tech community, and I appreciate his tech-oriented stuff ... but I'm kinda getting bored with seeing his LiveJournal posts on the HN homepage.

Well, there are a lot of others nowhere near as influential as RMS whose "LiveJornal"-esque posts about "entrepreneurship" - a la: How I made $2 million from $2 - regularly make the HN homepage. I could live with the former (and for once, RMS is making sense).

Re: Responding to Beggars

#79

Post by barry-cotter »

coryl wrote: post #22
mehulkar wrote: post #11

This has been a huge problem for me. I recently moved to San Francisco after many years of living in the Midwest. I was born and lived the first 10 years of my life in Delhi where poverty was no big deal. It was accepted and not questioned. After living in the States and doing all the chores that someone else would normally do for me in India (dishes, laundry, etc.), it became difficult for me to see people as anythi…

There are ways to help the homeless without giving out money. For example, volunteering at a soup kitchen, shelter, etc.

In the USA? No, there aren't. They're mentally ill or serious drug abusers. Also, your money can go a hell of a lot further and help a hell of a lot more people even in in the US. But you can save a life for about 800 dollars in the developing world.

http://www.givewell.org/

http://lesswrong.com/lw/37f/efficient_charity/

http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_sepa...

Re: Responding to Beggars

#80

Post by johnsea »

gioele wrote: post #69
Muzza wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartment…

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, e…

Read the parent post again, no problem with Bulgarian people in general.

What's with your xenophobia/racism haunch? It is not unreasonable to discuss such effects due to relative open - e.g. compared to US - borders.

Last year in Germany I myself saw 'gangs of beggars'. While not a problem, it annoys me when on touristic places you'll get asked for money every two minutes from one of the (romanian) women with child. It feels like an industry.

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