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It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

blogs.computerworld.com

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Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#161

Post by rbanffy »

greggman wrote: post #159
wvenable wrote: post #11

A lot of people, including the author of this article, seem to think it's unfair that Mozilla is not giving equal complaint time to both platforms. That's the fundamental issue here. Maybe, all things being equal , that would be a fair complaint but all things are not equal. First of all, the limitations of iOS and app store are well known and retread at least once a month on HN since the site opened. Mozilla certain…

You do realize this isn't about Windows 8 on Desktops right? This is about Windows RT on ARM Tablets. This is about Apple iOS tablets vs Microsoft Windows RT tablets. That's it. It is NOT about Windows8 on PCs. Re-read the article. As such it does seem rather valid that Mozilla is complaining about Windows RT tablets but not Apple iOS tablets

Windows on ARM is where the action will be.

It's about countless millions of corporate machines built around cheap and energy efficient hardware running corporate applications through a browser. Microsoft wants to make sure it's their browser.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#162

Post by rbanffy »

throwaway64 wrote: post #140
cooldeal wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now... Err what? You do realize that every single program that will run on Windows 7 will run on Windows 8 right? What do you mean by MS is closing Windows now? Also, Windows RT hasn't even started shipping yet, so you can say "Windows RT will be closed from the start". Which will make it equivalent to iOS in that regard.

exactly zero windows applications that exist currently will run under metro/winRT, so by extension, windows ARM.

Oddly enough it seems Firefox is able to JIT on Metro/x86

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#163

Post by rbanffy »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #104
rbanffy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget iOS is a walled garden since day 1, while Windows used the 3rd party ecosystem to gain relevance on the desktop. Now, with the x86 desktop fading slowly into irrelevance, they are trying to control the environment on what they perceive to be their lifeboat. Without a JIT they ensure IE will be the only usable browser available on the platform. It's like what they did with private APIs available only to M…

>Don't forget iOS is a walled garden since day 1, while Windows used the 3rd party ecosystem to gain relevance on the desktop So? None, not even one, of the 3rd party programs running on Windows will run on Windows RT, so I fail to see the relevance of that point and Windows RT is on day -180 right now, not even day 1. >Without a JIT they ensure IE will be the only usable browser available on the platform. Apple does…

iOS is not the next version of OSX. Windows 8 on ARM is the next version of Windows.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#164

Post by rbanffy »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #113
ozten wrote: post #59

(Disclaimers: I work for Mozilla) There is a huge difference between iOS and other platforms. Apple, in legal terms, makes Firefox on iOS impossible. This was not the case with Windows; Microsoft was using covert means to undermine user choice. To make a blanket statement that Mozilla thinks Apple's banning Firefox from iPad and the iPhone is 'not a problem' is wrong and disingenuous. We have active projects around w…

>There is a huge difference between iOS and other platforms. >Apple, in legal terms, makes Firefox on iOS impossible. This was not the case with Windows; Microsoft was using covert means to undermine user choice. Microsoft was using.. are you referring to the end 1990s or now? Does the 'huge difference' between them go away if Microsoft puts in a legal clause similar to the one in the iOS agreement? >To make a blanke…

So, because less people complain Apple does something similar (which is not really the same anyway) Microsoft gets a get-out-of-jail-free card? Because someone else does it, suddenly, doing it becomes right?

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#165

Post by Tloewald »

throwaway64 wrote: post #142
Tloewald wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A browser is a huge attack surface. It's excluded for the same reason Flash and Java are excluded. BTW I think this justifies Microsoft's stance too. The big problem is that Microsoft has this nasty track record.

so we can trust IE to be much more secure and not have problems?

No, but ie + other browsers is guaranteed to be less secure than just IE.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#166

Post by bzbarsky »

wavephorm wrote: post #132
bzbarsky wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no Firefix for iOS Sure there is. It hasn't been worked on much precisely because Apple wouldn't allow it anyway, but Ted Mielczarek ported Firefox to iOS a while back. See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676585 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=680878 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=681602 and so forth.

Why don't they send that to Cydia?

Because that would imply support costs that are just not worth it, if nothing else? Just a guess; I'm not privy to these sorts of decisions.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#167

Post by jusben1369 »

cletus wrote: post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

My only issue with your comments was here: "I certainly don't see an issue (yet) with Apple blocking alternative browsers. Don't like it? Buy an Android. Or a Windows Phone 7. Or a Blackberry (OK, I couldn't keep a straight face with that last one)." Back in the "good old days" that same argument was used "Don't like MSFT's practises? Buy an Apple, Linux, Unix box" etc This is how companies end up in a monopolistic type of situation. I) They exclude competition from their platform and then b) They use fantastic business model execution to achieve a dominant market share for their platform. It takes both to hit that suffocating point. You should be vigilant against both. It's a frog boiling in water type of event.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#168

Post by yuhong »

cooldeal wrote: post #99
georgemcbay wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was around during the time period you're talking about and in my personal experience, Microsoft had plenty of help in killing Netscape from Netscape itself. I switched to MSIE3 not because of bundling or FUD but because it was a much better browser. Microsoft has been a bad actor at times when it comes to business practices, but I think a lot of people overestimate how much that helped them and underestimate how mu…

Quite true, Netscape's rewrite was a pretty bad mistake and when it was actually released it was still bad. Must read articles by Joel about it. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000027.html

Also: http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=1708

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#169

Post by recoiledsnake »

rbanffy wrote: post #161
greggman wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize this isn't about Windows 8 on Desktops right? This is about Windows RT on ARM Tablets. This is about Apple iOS tablets vs Microsoft Windows RT tablets. That's it. It is NOT about Windows8 on PCs. Re-read the article. As such it does seem rather valid that Mozilla is complaining about Windows RT tablets but not Apple iOS tablets

Windows on ARM is where the action will be. It's about countless millions of corporate machines built around cheap and energy efficient hardware running corporate applications through a browser. Microsoft wants to make sure it's their browser.

>Windows on ARM is where the action will be.

I thought you were the first to predict doom and gloom for Windows 8 in general every time :)

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#170

Post by cooldeal »

rbanffy wrote: post #156
cooldeal wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now... Err what? You do realize that every single program that will run on Windows 7 will run on Windows 8 right? What do you mean by MS is closing Windows now? Also, Windows RT hasn't even started shipping yet, so you can say "Windows RT will be closed from the start". Which will make it equivalent to iOS in that regard.

Win8 is Windows kernel + Windows API + Windows RT. Win8 on ARM is Win8 minus Windows API. It's not a new product - it's a castrated version of the latest version of an old product.

By that metric, neither iOS nor Android are new, they're just castrated versions of OS X and Linux.

An OS is much more than it's kernel.

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