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It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

blogs.computerworld.com

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Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#111

Post by cooldeal »

azakai wrote: post #73
koeselitz wrote: post #29

This is a bit silly. So the point of this article is that Mozilla "should be criticizing Apple?" Why waste a whole article saying someone else should criticize Apple? It seems more worthwhile to do it oneself. The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right . If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't…

> Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple Good points, and furthermore that bit isn't even accurate. Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. But Windows RT is a new product, so there is new cricitism; the criticism of Apple is old.

>Mozilla has been critical of Apple too.

Care to link to them? I am not being facetious, I am genuinely interested in seeing their official statements on this and if they've publicly called Apple to open up iOS to Firefox. Bonus points if they've alluded to antitrust law.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#112

Post by shmerl »

sriramk wrote: post #48

My feeling here (ex-MSFT employee, so maybe biased one way or another) is that Mozilla is going after the soft underbelly of Microsoft, because they can . Mozilla is already locked out of iOS and they have failed at getting Apple to budge. If WinRT locks them out, they'll be locked out of two out of the three major tablet platforms (it's a safe assumption that WinRT will get some marketshare at least). Microsoft is a…

> If I were Microsoft, I would hold my ground.

You mean to justify such kind of crooked behavior?

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#113

Post by recoiledsnake »

ozten wrote: post #59

(Disclaimers: I work for Mozilla) There is a huge difference between iOS and other platforms. Apple, in legal terms, makes Firefox on iOS impossible. This was not the case with Windows; Microsoft was using covert means to undermine user choice. To make a blanket statement that Mozilla thinks Apple's banning Firefox from iPad and the iPhone is 'not a problem' is wrong and disingenuous. We have active projects around w…

>There is a huge difference between iOS and other platforms.

>Apple, in legal terms, makes Firefox on iOS impossible. This was not the case with Windows; Microsoft was using covert means to undermine user choice.

Microsoft was using.. are you referring to the end 1990s or now?

Does the 'huge difference' between them go away if Microsoft puts in a legal clause similar to the one in the iOS agreement?

>To make a blanket statement that Mozilla thinks Apple's banning Firefox from iPad and the iPhone is 'not a problem' is wrong and disingenuous.

Then where are the similar posts about Apple's actions? Surely, the iPad has a much bigger marketshare and Windows RT can easily prove to be a real dud and be DoA? Why is only Microsoft being threatened with hints of anti-trust complaints and not Apple when they are the ones with a near monopoly. Remember "There is no tablet market, there is an iPad market".

There is constant talk of the post-PC world in the media and on HN, and I doubt they're referring to Windows RT instead of the iPad in those discussions which frequently claim that MS is dying in the new computing world.

To summarize, I am really failing at seeing a "huge difference" between iOS and Windows RT that you are.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#114

Post by Zak »

rbanffy wrote: post #71
Zak wrote: post #41

This seems like a bad move for Microsoft. Few people see them as the horrible monopolistic evil empire anymore, but it's not so long ago that people saw them that way. They got in significant legal trouble just for bundling a browser with Windows. Blocking alternative browsers, or subjecting them to restrictions MS considers too crippling for their own browser seems like a good way to scare off developers and users a…

Scaring users off is not that big a problem for them. Microsoft has 5 vital clients - HP, Dell, Acer, Lenovo and Toshiba. As long as you buy a computer with Windows installed (and it's hard not to) they're happy.

Yes, but those clients are expanding their non-Windows offerings. The version of Windows in question isn't for traditional PCs but for ARM tablets. There, it has to compete with Android[1], which has a bit of a head start.

[1] And iOS, when in comes to consumer market share, but that's obviously not an option for the manufacturers MS sells to.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#115

Post by recoiledsnake »

koeselitz wrote: post #29

This is a bit silly. So the point of this article is that Mozilla "should be criticizing Apple?" Why waste a whole article saying someone else should criticize Apple? It seems more worthwhile to do it oneself. The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right . If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't…

>The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right. If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't mean that stealing is morally permissible.

Bad analogy. A better analogy would be to believe that stealing is wrong, but only loudly blame A for stealing, but be quiet when B does the exact same thing. Maybe the article should've said bias instead of hypocrisy.

>Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple doesn't mean their criticism of Microsoft is incorrect.

Did the article imply or say that?

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#116

Post by narrator »

jcurbo wrote: post #69
mbateman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do remember MS of the mid 90s and it's aura of invincibility, but in retrospect it sure looks like that aura was illusory (or highly temporary, which is really the same thing). Even apart from the antitrust suits it seems clear in hindsight, partly due to the examples that you mention, that the market was widening beyond MS's reach.

I highly disagree - especially in the browser area, it took many years to break Internet Explorer's total dominance, and the browser is what mattered most to consumers as the Internet became used by more and more everyday people. IE 4/5/6 was a golden era for Microsoft and many corporations are still stuck on IE6 as a base. Fortunately the consumer market is no longer dominated by IE; now that we have at least 4 majo…

I'm just glad they pulled some features out of IE6 because of the anti-trust investigation.

Anyone remember Smart Tags?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_tag_(Microsoft)

MS was basically going to put ads in every page on the Internet via the browser.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#117

Post by contextfree »

esrauch wrote: post #19
superuser2 wrote: post #13

Windows 8 is the natural successor to Win7 and XP. It's the next version of the most popular desktop OS in the world. As with Windows 7 and OSX, it should run whatever the hell the machine's owner wants it to. iOS is a locked-down, consistent, homogeneous user experience on specialty devices that should not be and are not marketed as replacements for computers. Apple Store employees will specifically advise against p…

> that should not be and are not marketed as replacements for computers. Interestingly several of my non-technical friends have taken on iPads as full time replacements for laptops. They only used them to read the news, facebook or watch netflix the iPad does literally everything that they previously had laptops for. > If Apple tried to tell me what I can and cannot run on OSX, I'd be pissed. I think the distinction…

Nope, all four quadrants will be populated. There will be ARM/Windows RT tablets, ARM laptops, x86/64/Windows 8 tablets, and x86 laptops.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#118

Post by azakai »

cooldeal wrote: post #111
azakai wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple Good points, and furthermore that bit isn't even accurate. Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. But Windows RT is a new product, so there is new cricitism; the criticism of Apple is old.

>Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. Care to link to them? I am not being facetious, I am genuinely interested in seeing their official statements on this and if they've publicly called Apple to open up iOS to Firefox. Bonus points if they've alluded to antitrust law.

> Care to link to them?

For example, here is criticism from a top Mozilla dev on iOS's closedness,

http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_f...

> Bonus points if they've alluded to antitrust law.

How can criticism of Apple be related to antitrust law? What monopoly do they have?

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#119

Post by alextingle »

sriramk wrote: post #48

My feeling here (ex-MSFT employee, so maybe biased one way or another) is that Mozilla is going after the soft underbelly of Microsoft, because they can . Mozilla is already locked out of iOS and they have failed at getting Apple to budge. If WinRT locks them out, they'll be locked out of two out of the three major tablet platforms (it's a safe assumption that WinRT will get some marketshare at least). Microsoft is a…

Furthermore, if Mozilla beat MS on this, they can then take that victory and try and apply it to Apple.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#120

Post by nextparadigms »

ricardobeat wrote: post #109
wvenable wrote: post #11

A lot of people, including the author of this article, seem to think it's unfair that Mozilla is not giving equal complaint time to both platforms. That's the fundamental issue here. Maybe, all things being equal , that would be a fair complaint but all things are not equal. First of all, the limitations of iOS and app store are well known and retread at least once a month on HN since the site opened. Mozilla certain…

The reason that Apple does not allow other engines in iOS is simple: it keeps all performance and security issues restricted to a single code base. That's good for users too. Considering that browsers implement the gross of their functionality (rendering + javascript) according to standards, there is no reason to have two different platforms that do exactly the same thing. As long as the standard is not owned by any…

Why wouldn't Microsoft be able to use the same excuse then. There are always advantages and disadvantages. The questions is what is the compromise you're willing to live with?

Apple, much like the US Government thinks security trumps everything, including individual liberties, "for their own good".

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