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It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

blogs.computerworld.com

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Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#61

Post by sp332 »

unreal37 wrote: post #55

A lot of misinformation being spread here. Microsoft has not BANNED Firefox in Windows 8. There will be a version of Firefox for all editions of Windows 8, including desktop and tablet as long as Mozilla chooses to make one. In Windows 8 for ARM-based tablets, applications like this have to run in a sandbox (Metro UI). Get over it. Either consumers will or will not buy a tablet that they can't run applications the wa…

The "sandbox" disallows JITs. That means JS performance in any browser (other than IE) will be basically unusable, effectively banning browsers from ARM Win8.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#62

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

wvenable wrote: post #32
sp332 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would make sense except that they specifically exempt their own browser from the restrictions that will apply to every other browser.

The problem is that third party applications can cause security and performance issues and it's Microsoft who ultimately takes the blame for it. They exempt their own browser because it's their own browser.

I'd say it's more an exemption for their own rendering engine. IE10 is more than just a "browser" in Windows 8, it is the engine used to execute several Windows 8 applications.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#63

Post by wvenable »

Terretta wrote: post #51
wvenable wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple blocks all non-Safari browsers from the store. Opera Mobile doesn't exist in the App store, only Opera Mini which uses a remote server for rendering. Other browsers in the store use iOS webkit and are effectively shells around the Safari rendering engine.

What's wrong with the webkit rendering engine? Chrome started as "effectively a shell" around webkit. As far as most end users are concerned, the difference between browsers is the UI, not the rendering engine. I use iCab on iOS for its UI and amazing feature set (including Adblock and extensions), and apprececiate the choice. In fact, it syncs with Firefox bookmarks. Atomic is also nice. It would be very interesting…

One example: The iPhone webkit doesn't support text reflow even though it's supported by webkit on Android and in Opera.

Many years ago you could have said "What's wrong with the IE rendering engine" because, at one time, IE was the best browser available on Windows.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#64

Post by rbanffy »

koeselitz wrote: post #29

This is a bit silly. So the point of this article is that Mozilla "should be criticizing Apple?" Why waste a whole article saying someone else should criticize Apple? It seems more worthwhile to do it oneself. The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right . If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't…

> The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right

Touché!

Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now because it feels that if it doesn't, it will lose the Win8 ARM market too.

And, obviously, Firefox is not the only target - they must be much more worried about Google owning the WOA web space.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#65

Post by Terretta »

wvenable wrote: post #35
loumf wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Browsers are totally allowed -- there are alternative browsers in the iOS App Store right now (I use Atomic). What is not allowed is to download code and execute it, which makes it impossible to write your own JavaScript interpreter, and forces you to use UIWebView to render HTML. You can't even just use webkit on your own -- you have to use the one on the device (by using UIWebView). FireFox would also not be able t…

I wish any browser on my iPhone would support text reflow. Webkit on Android does it. Opera does it. But you can't fix that without putting in a new rendering engine.

Use iCab and try making a reflow widget. There's a text size and reset layout widget already, so seems like it might be possible.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#66

Post by [deleted] »

cletus wrote: post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

[deleted]

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#67

Post by rbanffy »

ozten wrote: post #59

(Disclaimers: I work for Mozilla) There is a huge difference between iOS and other platforms. Apple, in legal terms, makes Firefox on iOS impossible. This was not the case with Windows; Microsoft was using covert means to undermine user choice. To make a blanket statement that Mozilla thinks Apple's banning Firefox from iPad and the iPhone is 'not a problem' is wrong and disingenuous. We have active projects around w…

Don't forget iOS is a walled garden since day 1, while Windows used the 3rd party ecosystem to gain relevance on the desktop. Now, with the x86 desktop fading slowly into irrelevance, they are trying to control the environment on what they perceive to be their lifeboat.

Without a JIT they ensure IE will be the only usable browser available on the platform. It's like what they did with private APIs available only to Microsoft programs - all other programs had to rely on slower/worse system functionality and, therefore, Microsoft programs enjoyed better performance.

Microsoft already went as far as making Windows 3 deliberately incompatible with DR-DOS. This is not new behavior - they just resort to it when they are threatened. I expect a lot more of it.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#68

Post by rbanffy »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #53
esrauch wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that should not be and are not marketed as replacements for computers. Interestingly several of my non-technical friends have taken on iPads as full time replacements for laptops. They only used them to read the news, facebook or watch netflix the iPad does literally everything that they previously had laptops for. > If Apple tried to tell me what I can and cannot run on OSX, I'd be pissed. I think the distinction…

The idea that an iPad can perform all the functions that some people are (under) using a laptop for doesn't mean that an iPad is an adequate replacement for a computer. They should not be marketed as such.

It all depends on what you use your computer for.

For me it wouldn't be an adequate replacement - I like to work on my code offline and run development servers of my computer, but it's easy to imagine a simple setup where I log on to a remote machine through the tablet and work there.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#69

Post by jcurbo »

mbateman wrote: post #33
cletus wrote: post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

I do remember MS of the mid 90s and it's aura of invincibility, but in retrospect it sure looks like that aura was illusory (or highly temporary, which is really the same thing). Even apart from the antitrust suits it seems clear in hindsight, partly due to the examples that you mention, that the market was widening beyond MS's reach.

I highly disagree - especially in the browser area, it took many years to break Internet Explorer's total dominance, and the browser is what mattered most to consumers as the Internet became used by more and more everyday people. IE 4/5/6 was a golden era for Microsoft and many corporations are still stuck on IE6 as a base. Fortunately the consumer market is no longer dominated by IE; now that we have at least 4 major browser platforms across all OS's (IE, Firefox, Chrome, Safari) many websites have to be somewhat standards compliant.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#70

Post by jack-r-abbit »

TimGebhardt wrote: post #45
dm8 wrote: post #26

Has MSFT given any justification on why they are banning Firefox from Windows 8? And why iOS doesn't allow FF too?

They're not banning it. They're just not allowing access to critical API functions for a JIT engine to Windows Marketplace apps. Only IE has access to it. Without these APIs then Firefox will run like a dog because it'll undue all the years that people have been working on optimizing Javascript engines.

Right. So... I don't ban anyone from my swimming pool... everyone is welcome. But if you're not family, you have to wear this 100lb ankle weight. Dive right in everybody! lol
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