It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it • Hacker News Board

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#31

Post by loumf » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:30 PM UTC

dm8 wrote: post #21

superuser2 wrote: post #13

Windows 8 is the natural successor to Win7 and XP. It's the next version of the most popular desktop OS in the world. As with Windows 7 and OSX, it should run whatever the hell the machine's owner wants it to. iOS is a locked-down, consistent, homogeneous user experience on specialty devices that should not be and are not marketed as replacements for computers. Apple Store employees will specifically advise against p…

That doesn't mean you should lockdown all the browser apps just to ensure your control. Both iOS and WP8 allow all sorts of apps to be run. Then why not another browser? AAPL's insistence for banning flash was justified. Flash has always been memory hog and battery killer but not allowing non-webkit browsers is foolish.

Browsers are totally allowed -- there are alternative browsers in the iOS App Store right now (I use Atomic).

What is not allowed is to download code and execute it, which makes it impossible to write your own JavaScript interpreter, and forces you to use UIWebView to render HTML. You can't even just use webkit on your own -- you have to use the one on the device (by using UIWebView).

FireFox would also not be able to have plugins for similar reasons.

Atomic is better than Safari because it allows User-agent switching, view source and some other nice features, all of which doesn't require them to interpret JavaScript with their own code.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#32

Post by wvenable » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:30 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #10

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #2

>"The difference here is that Microsoft is using its Windows monopoly power in the OS market to exclude competition in the browser market." Some might see it that way. Personally, I don't think that's Microsoft's goals at all, it's just an unintended consequence of them trying to slowly phase out the Win32 API and Desktop applications, and switch entirely to Metro-style WinRT-based apps.

That would make sense except that they specifically exempt their own browser from the restrictions that will apply to every other browser.

The problem is that third party applications can cause security and performance issues and it's Microsoft who ultimately takes the blame for it. They exempt their own browser because it's their own browser.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#33

Post by mbateman » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:31 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

I do remember MS of the mid 90s and it's aura of invincibility, but in retrospect it sure looks like that aura was illusory (or highly temporary, which is really the same thing). Even apart from the antitrust suits it seems clear in hindsight, partly due to the examples that you mention, that the market was widening beyond MS's reach.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#34

Post by loumf » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:32 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #28

dm8 wrote: post #26

Has MSFT given any justification on why they are banning Firefox from Windows 8? And why iOS doesn't allow FF too?

I think that one of the guidelines when developing iOS apps is that if you are building a browser you must use WebKit/UIWebView.

And the reason is because they don't allow you to run code that you download (which you would have to do to support JavaScript).

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#35

Post by wvenable » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:33 PM UTC

loumf wrote: post #31

dm8 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't mean you should lockdown all the browser apps just to ensure your control. Both iOS and WP8 allow all sorts of apps to be run. Then why not another browser? AAPL's insistence for banning flash was justified. Flash has always been memory hog and battery killer but not allowing non-webkit browsers is foolish.

Browsers are totally allowed -- there are alternative browsers in the iOS App Store right now (I use Atomic). What is not allowed is to download code and execute it, which makes it impossible to write your own JavaScript interpreter, and forces you to use UIWebView to render HTML. You can't even just use webkit on your own -- you have to use the one on the device (by using UIWebView). FireFox would also not be able t…

I wish any browser on my iPhone would support text reflow. Webkit on Android does it. Opera does it. But you can't fix that without putting in a new rendering engine.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#36

Post by jamesbritt » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:38 PM UTC

onedognight wrote: post #17

gm wrote: post #6

FF's entire existence is based on a hate of Microsoft, so it only makes sense. That's why they're taking it up the butt from Google Chrome, Mozilla does not know how to deal with them. Nor do they particularly care that much about it, it seems (other than switching to increasing the version number every 2 months).

> FF's entire existence is based on a hate of Microsoft As a student of history I'm sure you are aware that Mozilla (the name and the code base) predated Internet Explorer. I think you meant to say that Internet Explorer's only reason for existing was that Microsoft feared Netscape.

As a student of history I'm sure you are aware that Mozilla (the name and the code base) predated Internet Explorer.

Indeed, the name Mozilla comes from "Mosaic killer."

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#37

Post by 0x0 » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:38 PM UTC

xemoka wrote: post #30

0x0 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WinRT is to Windows 8, as iOS is to OS X.

And so it begins... I believe you mean Windows RT [1] and not WinRT [2]. Both x86 and ARM processors can use WinRT (metro interface) however Windows RT is the flavour of windows that only runs on ARM processors and only supports third party apps using WinRT [3]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime [3] http://www.i-programmer.info/news/177-windows-8/4079-three-w…

From the wikipedia article:

  Windows RT (RT stands for Runtime)

...

  Not to be confused with Windows Runtime

Great choice of names, there.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#38

Post by billpatrianakos » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:40 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #16

wvenable wrote: post #11

A lot of people, including the author of this article, seem to think it's unfair that Mozilla is not giving equal complaint time to both platforms. That's the fundamental issue here. Maybe, all things being equal , that would be a fair complaint but all things are not equal. First of all, the limitations of iOS and app store are well known and retread at least once a month on HN since the site opened. Mozilla certain…

Post-lastly: there's the simple point that Firefox for Windows is an actual product that could be shipped near-immediately. There is no Firefix for iOS, precisely because Apple has never allowed it. I think the broad point is valid though: Apple's platform control is no more morally justified than Microsoft's. And at least in the abstract they deserve equal scorn. But the specifics here are that Windows 8 on ARM won'…

What you're missing here is that Apple bans everyone equally while Microsoft does not. What I mean by that is the App Store doesn't discriminate on an individual basis. Apple is generally consistent in their "unfairness". Looking at what Microsoft is doing, their decision to restrict Firefox immediately struck me as an anti-trust monopoly issue. They're not restricting Firefox on the basis of some policy that applies to everyone but singling out one piece of software.

The argument in this article is a red herring. This isn't about fairness. It plays on the whole Apple v. Microsoft thing and tries to drum up sympathy and or guilt by playing the "you're just hating on MS because it's trendy" card in a way. It really looks like Microsoft has decided to restrict Firefox capabilities on ARM devices so their browser can have a leg up and deliberately and negatively impact the user experience of Firefox on certain devices.

Framing this using Apple and it's policies/practices are an attempt at misdirection. If you take this attempt to play the Apple v. Microsoft card out of the equation and for a moment pretend Apple never banned FF and FF never even tried to get on iOS what you're left with is Microsoft unfairly discriminating against one company in an obvious attempt to stamp out any competition. It's a pretty cut and dry case of ant-trust once you weed out all the distractions.

Edit: clarified the first sentence of last paragraph. Added the words "Framing this using".

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#39

Post by krakensden » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:42 PM UTC

loumf wrote: post #31

dm8 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't mean you should lockdown all the browser apps just to ensure your control. Both iOS and WP8 allow all sorts of apps to be run. Then why not another browser? AAPL's insistence for banning flash was justified. Flash has always been memory hog and battery killer but not allowing non-webkit browsers is foolish.

Browsers are totally allowed -- there are alternative browsers in the iOS App Store right now (I use Atomic). What is not allowed is to download code and execute it, which makes it impossible to write your own JavaScript interpreter, and forces you to use UIWebView to render HTML. You can't even just use webkit on your own -- you have to use the one on the device (by using UIWebView). FireFox would also not be able t…

My understanding is that the alternative browsers on iOS aren't really browsers- they're reskins of the iOS' webkit. You can't, for instance, plug in your own Javascript interpreter. Opera mini takes a different tack, doing much of the work on their servers and forwarding it to the client. But a full replacement for Safari, like a fork, Firefox, or Chrome, is not allowed.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#40

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:44 PM UTC

dm8 wrote: post #21

superuser2 wrote: post #13

Windows 8 is the natural successor to Win7 and XP. It's the next version of the most popular desktop OS in the world. As with Windows 7 and OSX, it should run whatever the hell the machine's owner wants it to. iOS is a locked-down, consistent, homogeneous user experience on specialty devices that should not be and are not marketed as replacements for computers. Apple Store employees will specifically advise against p…

That doesn't mean you should lockdown all the browser apps just to ensure your control. Both iOS and WP8 allow all sorts of apps to be run. Then why not another browser? AAPL's insistence for banning flash was justified. Flash has always been memory hog and battery killer but not allowing non-webkit browsers is foolish.

[deleted]