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It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

blogs.computerworld.com

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Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#91

Post by AshleysBrain »

I think Mozilla are absolutely right. and there is no hypocrisy. Microsoft are willing to, and have actually already, cause years of stagnation and harm to the internet with IE6. Presumably if they got the chance they would do it again on tablet too. Apple on the other hand don't appear so risky for two reasons:

1) they've never appeared to have an issue with other browsers on Mac OS

2) there's Android and its browser competing with iOS, so there is not a complete iOS-only monoculture like Microsoft had with Windows - there is still competition between mobile browsers (yes, switching browsers means you have to switch device, but that's better than nothing and will surely prevent one mobile browser from stagnating for five years).

I know this doesn't mean Apple wouldn't do it if they had the chance, but as another commenter pointed out, many people have bad memories of long weekends trying to work with IE6 for the long 5 years between IE6 and IE7. Microsoft have already offended, so they deserve extra special attention, especially with legal agreements possibly still in place due to the antitrust cases.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#92

Post by Tloewald »

georgemcbay wrote: post #88
cletus wrote: post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

I was around during the time period you're talking about and in my personal experience, Microsoft had plenty of help in killing Netscape from Netscape itself. I switched to MSIE3 not because of bundling or FUD but because it was a much better browser. Microsoft has been a bad actor at times when it comes to business practices, but I think a lot of people overestimate how much that helped them and underestimate how mu…

I agree Netscape helped kill itself, but the list of things Microsoft did is long and sordid.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#93

Post by superuser2 »

esrauch wrote: post #19
superuser2 wrote: post #13

Windows 8 is the natural successor to Win7 and XP. It's the next version of the most popular desktop OS in the world. As with Windows 7 and OSX, it should run whatever the hell the machine's owner wants it to. iOS is a locked-down, consistent, homogeneous user experience on specialty devices that should not be and are not marketed as replacements for computers. Apple Store employees will specifically advise against p…

> that should not be and are not marketed as replacements for computers. Interestingly several of my non-technical friends have taken on iPads as full time replacements for laptops. They only used them to read the news, facebook or watch netflix the iPad does literally everything that they previously had laptops for. > If Apple tried to tell me what I can and cannot run on OSX, I'd be pissed. I think the distinction…

Sorry, I misinterpreted that. In that case, I have no more problem with Microsoft deciding what runs on a Windows tablet than Toyota deciding what runs on its car computers, Sony on its stereos, Panasonic on its TVs, Black & Decker on its toasters, etc.

I don't think it's productive to eliminate the possibility of coherent, homogeneous UIs. Certainly consumers should have choices, but iPhone exactly as Apple intended it should one of those choices; Microsoft should be allowed to play that game too.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#94

Post by cooldeal »

cletus wrote: post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

>I believe the whole Metro API browser thing is just more evidence of Microsoft's stagnation.

I don't see that. They realize the crap that's thrown at them for malware on Windows and pre-emptively want to cut that off for Windows RT, like Apple did in iOS(see Android for contrast).

Not to mention battery life concerns because the apps with the APIs can always run in the background. Once the door is opened for Firefox, Microsoft cannot shut it for any other third party which wants to make an alleged "browser".

Expecting users to make the call about what's malware and what's not has proved to be naive at best.

Ref. http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2005/07/the-dancing-bunnies...

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#95

Post by lmkg »

CountSessine wrote: post #56

I'm going to put this question out here for everyone who's had some experience building a JIT engine of some kind: what exactly is the danger of compiling code, even unknown code like from downloaded javascript, when the process' operating environment is supposed to be hardened anyways? Is it just that the only way to do this is with VirtualAlloc()/mmap()? Could a 'safe' executable page allocator be created for just…

First three rules of security: Layers, Layers, LAYERS.

To your point, in theory you could accomplish security by totally securing the JIT, or by totally securing the OS, and then exec's JITed code would be ok. However, totally secured JITers and OSs are as mythical as sufficiently smart compilers.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#96

Post by Tloewald »

tosseraccount wrote: post #87

Why are they blocking FF? It seems to me Apple's inviting the same anti-trust problems Microsoft had. Just let FF on and compete.

A browser is a huge attack surface. It's excluded for the same reason Flash and Java are excluded.

BTW I think this justifies Microsoft's stance too. The big problem is that Microsoft has this nasty track record.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#97

Post by wvenable »

Someone wrote: post #81
ajross wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think Apple decided to restrict third party browsers so their browser "can have a leg up?" (Yes, yes, I know the answer will come back "a unified browser is a better user experience". And my response is: why not let the market make that call?) That sounds awfully naive. Apple certainly does protect its turf (c.f. banning Google Voice after approving dozens of VoIP apps) , and to argue otherwise is just sill…

"Yes, yes, I know the answer will come back "a unified browser is a better user experience". And my response is: why not let the market make that call?" Looking at the continuing success of iOS, so far, the market isn't really shouting out loud that not allowing third party browsers is a good thing. Also, I think there is a valid technical argument for not allowing multiple competing libraries on a mobile device: mem…

> Looking at the continuing success of iOS, so far, the market isn't really shouting out loud that not allowing third party browsers is a good thing.

This frighteningly illogical statement comes up way too often. The existence/non-existence of third party browsers probably has very little influence on the success of iOS one way or the other. Success does not mean they did everything right and there is no room for improvement.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#98

Post by cooldeal »

billpatrianakos wrote: post #38
ajross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post-lastly: there's the simple point that Firefox for Windows is an actual product that could be shipped near-immediately. There is no Firefix for iOS, precisely because Apple has never allowed it. I think the broad point is valid though: Apple's platform control is no more morally justified than Microsoft's. And at least in the abstract they deserve equal scorn. But the specifics here are that Windows 8 on ARM won'…

What you're missing here is that Apple bans everyone equally while Microsoft does not. What I mean by that is the App Store doesn't discriminate on an individual basis. Apple is generally consistent in their "unfairness". Looking at what Microsoft is doing, their decision to restrict Firefox immediately struck me as an anti-trust monopoly issue. They're not restricting Firefox on the basis of some policy that applies…

>They're not restricting Firefox on the basis of some policy that applies to everyone but singling out one piece of software.

>Framing this using Apple and it's policies/practices are an attempt at misdirection. If you take this attempt to play the Apple v. Microsoft card out of the equation and for a moment pretend Apple never banned FF and FF never even tried to get on iOS what you're left with is Microsoft unfairly discriminating against one company in an obvious attempt to stamp out any competition. It's a pretty cut and dry case of ant-trust once you weed out all the distractions.

Zero third party applications with access to the Win32 API will be allowed on Windows RT. You're way off base here.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/02/09/building-windo...

Was your post meant to be sarcastic? I've seen some anti-Microsoft and pro-Apple FUD, but this one takes the cake. Only nirvana can beat this in the terms of rewriting facts and blanket unreferenced assertions.

If fact I wonder if Poe's law applies to your post and the post is in fact a troll.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poes_Law

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#99

Post by cooldeal »

georgemcbay wrote: post #88
cletus wrote: post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

I was around during the time period you're talking about and in my personal experience, Microsoft had plenty of help in killing Netscape from Netscape itself. I switched to MSIE3 not because of bundling or FUD but because it was a much better browser. Microsoft has been a bad actor at times when it comes to business practices, but I think a lot of people overestimate how much that helped them and underestimate how mu…

Quite true, Netscape's rewrite was a pretty bad mistake and when it was actually released it was still bad.

Must read articles by Joel about it.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000027.html

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#100

Post by recoiledsnake »

rbanffy wrote: post #77
azakai wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple Good points, and furthermore that bit isn't even accurate. Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. But Windows RT is a new product, so there is new cricitism; the criticism of Apple is old.

WinRT is not a new product - it's a new API sitting on top of mostly the same Windows kernel they use for Windows 7.

Windows RT = New product meant for ARM devices (the current topic of discussion)

WinRT = New runtime API for Metro apps that will run on both Windows 8 and Windows RT.

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