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It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

blogs.computerworld.com

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Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#151

Post by cooldeal »

billpatrianakos wrote: post #139
cooldeal wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're not restricting Firefox on the basis of some policy that applies to everyone but singling out one piece of software. >Framing this using Apple and it's policies/practices are an attempt at misdirection. If you take this attempt to play the Apple v. Microsoft card out of the equation and for a moment pretend Apple never banned FF and FF never even tried to get on iOS what you're left with is Microsoft unfairl…

I resent the implication that I'm a troll first off. Secondly, after reading a lot of the responses to what I wrote I feel like I've been vindicated. I have to admit that I was wrong about Microsoft arbitrarily applying policies unfairly. I plead ignorance on that one. I honestly though I knew what I was talking about. However, I feel like most of these comments just reinforce my point about how this article frames t…

I don't see the article as a troll, but raises a legitimate question about why Mozilla is only targeting Microsoft and not Apple.

First of all I think we can agree that Apple's actions with iOS and Microsoft's actions with Windows RT are exactly equivalent.

>The question is "are Microsoft's actions in this case monopolistic? Now because the answer to that question is most likely yes..."

How can they be monopolistic when they have zero marketshare in the tablet market and exactly zero apps from their Win32 monopoly will even run on the new platform?

If you think the answer is yes, then is Apple guilty of the same?

> Let's say Apple is wrong which is the implication here. If that's true then so is Microsoft.

Not necessarily, because Apple has a way larger marketshare in the tablet market. Your argument is like claiming in 2000 that it would be an anti-trust issue for Apple to bundle their browser with their computers.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#152

Post by chj »

sauravc wrote: post #138
shmerl wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I were Microsoft, I would hold my ground. You mean to justify such kind of crooked behavior?

No, it means owning the browsing/battery life experience e2e. Geez! When it comes to issues about Apple or Microsoft (or Ruby), it seems a number of people on HN lack the ability to think objectively. It's quite sad really. It's like watching Republicans and Democrats fight in Congress, or North Carolina banning gay marriage, or Muslims and Christians fighting over God knows what. All these things stem from the inabi…

The question is, do you really think that MS can always outdo Mozilla in "browsing/battery" experience?

They are controlling browser for a reason, but not a good reason to rule other players out.

As a platform provider, Apple/Microsoft choose not to provide the full computational power to software developers. All the more reason developers should go to Android.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#153

Post by cooldeal »

azakai wrote: post #118
cooldeal wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. Care to link to them? I am not being facetious, I am genuinely interested in seeing their official statements on this and if they've publicly called Apple to open up iOS to Firefox. Bonus points if they've alluded to antitrust law.

> Care to link to them? For example, here is criticism from a top Mozilla dev on iOS's closedness, http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_f... > Bonus points if they've alluded to antitrust law. How can criticism of Apple be related to antitrust law? What monopoly do they have?

I fail to see how a random post by a dev on Usenet is remotely close to an official statement by the General Counsel of Mozilla on the company blog.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#154

Post by rbanffy »

Zak wrote: post #114
rbanffy wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scaring users off is not that big a problem for them. Microsoft has 5 vital clients - HP, Dell, Acer, Lenovo and Toshiba. As long as you buy a computer with Windows installed (and it's hard not to) they're happy.

Yes, but those clients are expanding their non-Windows offerings. The version of Windows in question isn't for traditional PCs but for ARM tablets. There, it has to compete with Android[1], which has a bit of a head start. [1] And iOS, when in comes to consumer market share, but that's obviously not an option for the manufacturers MS sells to.

> There, it has to compete with Android[1], which has a bit of a head start.

This matters little if MS is able to leverage their power with PC (by modulating the Windows OEM license price) and phone (modulating their Android patent tax) makers to convince them they should build Win8 tablets. Even as it diminishes, the power Microsoft has over the computing industry is enormous and cannot be ignored.

I have a strong suspicion many phone vendors wouldn't bother to offer WP7 products without some sort of incentive from Redmond.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#155

Post by rbanffy »

estel wrote: post #141
wavephorm wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft has definitely earned their hatred in both the consumer and development communities. They rode their monopoly as far as they could, and they are going to pay for it very dearly. Literally noone I have met in the past 10 years is developing Windows software anymore. Sure, some people use .Net to develop web applications, but it sure seems that nobody develops Windows-only software. So Microsoft, has already…

That sounds like a function of the people you've met tbh. Looking at job postings around these parts, the most widespread platform remains .NET. Whilst the non-existent adoption amongst startups doesn't necessarily bode well for MSFT's future, there is still a huge amount of .NET development going on worldwide.

Sure many enterprises use .NET, just like many enterprises use Java and COBOL running on zSeries mainframes.

What fraction of that .NET jobs would you call "interesting" of "cutting edge"?

.NET developers aren't in the endangered species list. Not more than COBOL developers who know what CICS means.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#156

Post by rbanffy »

cooldeal wrote: post #107
rbanffy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right Touché! Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now because it feels that if it doesn't, it will lose the Win8 ARM market too. And, obviously, Firefox is not the only target - they must be much more worried about Google owning the WOA web space.

>Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now... Err what? You do realize that every single program that will run on Windows 7 will run on Windows 8 right? What do you mean by MS is closing Windows now? Also, Windows RT hasn't even started shipping yet, so you can say "Windows RT will be closed from the start". Which will make it equivalent to iOS in that regard.

Win8 is Windows kernel + Windows API + Windows RT. Win8 on ARM is Win8 minus Windows API. It's not a new product - it's a castrated version of the latest version of an old product.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#157

Post by contextfree »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #62
wvenable wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that third party applications can cause security and performance issues and it's Microsoft who ultimately takes the blame for it. They exempt their own browser because it's their own browser.

I'd say it's more an exemption for their own rendering engine. IE10 is more than just a "browser" in Windows 8, it is the engine used to execute several Windows 8 applications.

It's an exemption for whatever is preinstalled on the device :) The actual technical mechanism behind this "ban" is simply that installing desktop apps in general is blocked on Windows RT. A "Metro style enabled desktop browser" (what Metro style IE and Metro style Firefox are) is really just a desktop executable that acts like a Metro style app.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#158

Post by rbanffy »

ricardobeat wrote: post #131
nextparadigms wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't Microsoft be able to use the same excuse then. There are always advantages and disadvantages. The questions is what is the compromise you're willing to live with? Apple, much like the US Government thinks security trumps everything, including individual liberties, "for their own good".

Indeed they could, I just said that. This lock might force MS to make IE's engine as good as WebKit. I don't see any problem as long as the standards are kept open and the engine doesn't belong to a single entity.

You got the lock-in strategy backwards. It exists to allow the incumbent not to improve their products while maximizing their profits because they don't have to compete.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#159

Post by greggman »

wvenable wrote: post #11

A lot of people, including the author of this article, seem to think it's unfair that Mozilla is not giving equal complaint time to both platforms. That's the fundamental issue here. Maybe, all things being equal , that would be a fair complaint but all things are not equal. First of all, the limitations of iOS and app store are well known and retread at least once a month on HN since the site opened. Mozilla certain…

You do realize this isn't about Windows 8 on Desktops right? This is about Windows RT on ARM Tablets.

This is about Apple iOS tablets vs Microsoft Windows RT tablets.

That's it.

It is NOT about Windows8 on PCs. Re-read the article.

As such it does seem rather valid that Mozilla is complaining about Windows RT tablets but not Apple iOS tablets

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#160

Post by rbanffy »

melling wrote: post #134
mbateman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do remember MS of the mid 90s and it's aura of invincibility, but in retrospect it sure looks like that aura was illusory (or highly temporary, which is really the same thing). Even apart from the antitrust suits it seems clear in hindsight, partly due to the examples that you mention, that the market was widening beyond MS's reach.

Microsoft still has 90% desktop market share. They still have a very big reach. And this was the attitude that got them into a lot of trouble: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish People might not fear Microsoft like they used too, but they still have the knockout punch in them. If you're their competition, never let your guard down with them.

> If you're their competition, never let your guard down with them

I would upvote you a couple more times if I could. And, since you used a fistfight metaphor, allow me to remind you they never entered one without having their brass knuckles ready.

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