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European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

arstechnica.com

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Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#151

Post by noirbot »

cyphereal wrote: post #110
binarymax wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another vote for Mazda here. But I’m not sure about 2023/2024 models

I have a Mazda 2020 CX30. The display is not a touch screen and using CarPlay with the physical selector drives me nuts (it's also dangerous). I like physical controls for everything else, but please make displays for e.g. CarPlay touch screens.

Yea, I generally agree with that. At least in my '14 model, it also has some weird internal gate where it won't let you scroll through more than 5-10 items in a list while you're going more than 5 MPH. And if you're stopped, and scrolling further than that, it resets you to the start of the list if you start moving. It's infuriating when I'm just trying to play an album that doesn't start with A-D.

I can understand disabling touchscreen scrolling while driving, but at least save my place in the list.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#152

Post by fy20 »

spdustin wrote: post #58
userbinator wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean you don't press the left one to stop, and the right one to go?

You don't feel the hydraulic feedback in the brake pedal (just the ABS buzzing), and gas pedals in many modern EFI vehicles feel more like foot-operated potentiometers than throttle linkages.

Every vehicle I've ever driven since I learnt to drive 20 years ago has had an electronic throttle body, a digital accelerator and ABS. Welcome to 2024.

I did learn to drive manual, but I'd never buy another car like that. Maybe it's fun for racing, but for every day driving, automatic requires less effort and longevity isn't a concern today.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#153

Post by Spivak »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #114
cwillu wrote: post #2

A start, but not far enough: anything a driver might be reasonably expected to do while driving should have a physical control. Zero-force, zero-feedback, zero-travel controls should be illegal for such functions.

Obvious limitation is something like Maps and media. My guess ones that use mechanical dials (i.e. Lexus until ~ year ago) cause more distraction than touchscreen by simply being harder to use and taking more time to solve your problem. Given how well chatgpt's voice recognition works - why not just put it on all cars!

Check how Mazda did it with their ring control. I love it in mine. No touch screen needed.

It's amazing that accessibility is such an afterthought that having a physical wheel that tabs forward and backward through a UI as the primary means of using it is unfathomable until it's actually implemented.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#154

Post by peeters »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #114
cwillu wrote: post #2

A start, but not far enough: anything a driver might be reasonably expected to do while driving should have a physical control. Zero-force, zero-feedback, zero-travel controls should be illegal for such functions.

Obvious limitation is something like Maps and media. My guess ones that use mechanical dials (i.e. Lexus until ~ year ago) cause more distraction than touchscreen by simply being harder to use and taking more time to solve your problem. Given how well chatgpt's voice recognition works - why not just put it on all cars!

I've only used a Lexus that had a touchpad. I do however regularly use a Mazda with its commander knob, and it is far safer than a touchscreen in my opinion. You can do most navigation without looking at the screen, with just an occasional glance to confirm you're doing what you think you're doing. Whereas a touchscreen requires constant attention while you're manipulating the screen.

The only thing that annoys me about Commander Knob + Android Auto is that AA still forces attention breaks as you scroll through big lists (e.g. Spotify playlists) which is really stupid because you're not usually looking at the screen if you know you need to scroll say 75% down. You're just looking occasionally to see how far you've made it. By making the task take longer, it's reducing safety.

The biggest safety issue by far with Mazda+AA is Google's baffling regression in handling voice input for common tasks while driving.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#155

Post by Vespasian »

nunez wrote: post #94
izzydata wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything I ever hear about Tesla's keeps getting worse and worse. How are they still in business and why does anyone buy one?

best electric cars in the business, though that gap is shrinking. their automotive infotainment ux is second to none. it's miles better than carplay.

Never having driven a Tesla, I'm legitimately curious how much of a difference the infotainment makes.

The onboard system of my Chinese BEV is not great to be honest (rest of the car works well) but it has Android Auto so it navigates and plays my media.

Since as a sole driver I have to keep my eyes on the road at all times, it seems possible that passengers could benefit but I would like to have some first hand reports.

Or is it common for some people to sit in the car and use the infotainment just for fun?

(I swear that I'm asking in good faith)

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#156

Post by lelanthran »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #21

The idea that a touch screen is cheaper than buttons and that this is the driving factor I find hilarious. It's some top tier bean counter shit. I mean, yeah, sure. It'd be cheaper for my tyres to be made of wood. I don't give a toss, a new vehicle costs tens of thousands, what's $50 for a few buttons? edit: Top tier bean counter replies! Is it contagious?

> I don't give a toss, a new vehicle costs tens of thousands, what's $50 for a few buttons?

I don't think you've ever worked in manufacturing.

It's not just the cost of the buttons.

A larger cost is the fabrication of the housing for all the buttons: design the housing that goes into the dashboard/console, create a jig/die, continue creating new jigs/dies as the old ones wear out, keep the factory floorspace available even after the car has gone out of production, etc. This has to be done for each car model (yeah, even if you're using blanks).

Another cost that dwarves the cost of buying buttons is the fitment: the fitment robots have to be purchased, programmed and maintained just to put those $50 buttons in. It has to be done for each car model.

And, of course, design changes late in the process cause the manufacturer to spend all that money all over again.

Spread over the lifetime of the car (how long they keep providing parts for it), a minimum of around 5 years, that $50 is negligible compared to the tens of millions of dollars poured into fabricating and fitting of those $50 buttons.

Compared to a touchscreen, all that's done is to ensure that the dashboard design has a housing for the touchscreen. Done, and works for all models from baseline to top-end with no more money needed.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#157

Post by speedgoose »

Spivak wrote: post #153
dzhiurgis wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obvious limitation is something like Maps and media. My guess ones that use mechanical dials (i.e. Lexus until ~ year ago) cause more distraction than touchscreen by simply being harder to use and taking more time to solve your problem. Given how well chatgpt's voice recognition works - why not just put it on all cars!

Check how Mazda did it with their ring control. I love it in mine. No touch screen needed. It's amazing that accessibility is such an afterthought that having a physical wheel that tabs forward and backward through a UI as the primary means of using it is unfathomable until it's actually implemented.

If it’s like the old BMW iDrive systems, it’s pretty good but I think it’s a bit like comparing a blackberry and an iPhone. Sure the physical keyboard on the blackberry has advantages.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#158

Post by 2143 »

aurareturn wrote: post #4

Around 10 years ago, I started looking into buying a new car. I couldn't believe the number of cars that switched to touch controls even 10 years ago. It boggles my mind just how car makers thought it was safer/easier to have touch in a car while one is driving. I refused to buy any car that replaced physical buttons with touch controls 10 years ago and I still have this rule today. Then again, it also boggles my min…

> Then again, it also boggles my mind how car makers in the US continue to use flashing red lights as the turn signal instead of yellow lights.

This is probably a US government regulation thing. Because those same cars sold elsewhere in the world does have flashing yellow lights as indicators.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#159

Post by userbinator »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #142
userbinator wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the least bit helped by the fact that there seem to be several models all called the "Model S", but with very different controls. https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-DEB259C... For vehicles manufactured as of approximately January 2024: To sound the horn, press the middle of the steering yoke (or steering wheel). For vehicles manufactured prior to approximately January 2024: To sound the horn, pr…

Thanks for that link, which has images. Jesus, the pre-2024 horn is insane . It's one tiny button among many on the right side (of that stupid yoke, but I digress...) The whole point of having the horn in the middle of the steering wheel is you can just mash it with your palm, no need to hunt for anything. Really wonder how that ever got into a production car in the first place.

The whole point of having the horn in the middle of the steering wheel is you can just mash it with your palm, no need to hunt for anything.

One can easily see this "meme" if one searches for images of "driver honking horn":

https://www.google.com/search?q=driver+honking+horn&tbm=isch

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#160

Post by ggreer »

breadwinner wrote: post #11

Couldn't agree more. Tesla is the biggest violator. In new Teslas, they are removing physical stalks, so if you want to reverse the car, you have to use on-screen controls!

Is someone forcing you to drive a Tesla?

Yes, many people find these touch screens annoying, and they’ll tend to buy cars with physical controls. But just like people who prefer physical keyboards on their phones, these consumers are a vocal minority who aren’t big enough to cater to.

If touch screens make cars less safe, then we should see higher liability insurance rates for such cars. So far that doesn’t seem to be the case.

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