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European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

arstechnica.com

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Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#141

Post by erulabs »

Eh. Let the market decide. Yes Tesla overdid the touch controls - but they were also the first company to put a touch screen that isn’t awful into a car. Yes, removing the stalks a going too far imo, but I can’t imagine how narrow my awareness of the world must be for that to register outrage.

I almost got hit by a porche 911 gt2 today. That car is completely mechanical - but it was being driven by an aggressive idiot; who gives a crap what the wiper button looks like. The controls haptic feedback must be at least on the 20 thousandth page of important things about a car.

The market doesn’t solve all problems - but if the touch controls are so awful, there are only two answer: either they’re not that awful, or tons of people are idiots and you’re really smart. You know, the fount of all bad legislation.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#142

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

userbinator wrote: post #65
threeseed wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue with the horn is referring to the Tesla Model S. And specifically the horn button being capacitive co-located with the voice assistance and windscreen wiper buttons. Which in a safety situation was difficult to locate and press.

Not the least bit helped by the fact that there seem to be several models all called the "Model S", but with very different controls. https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-DEB259C... For vehicles manufactured as of approximately January 2024: To sound the horn, press the middle of the steering yoke (or steering wheel). For vehicles manufactured prior to approximately January 2024: To sound the horn, pr…

Thanks for that link, which has images. Jesus, the pre-2024 horn is insane. It's one tiny button among many on the right side (of that stupid yoke, but I digress...) The whole point of having the horn in the middle of the steering wheel is you can just mash it with your palm, no need to hunt for anything. Really wonder how that ever got into a production car in the first place.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#143

Post by ok_dad »

static_void_ wrote: post #89
I_Am_Nous wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At least the steering wheel and pedals still behave the same. For now, companies are experimenting with drive by wire. Don't think I like that concept.

Electronic power steering already exists. It's used in a lot of cars, and has been for at least 10 years. Your car may have one of these systems in it. In an electric power steering system there are steering angle and torque sensors that know what direction the wheel is turned an how hard it has turned, and this is connected to an electric motor that powers the gears to move the steering rack. There are still regulat…

Most of the modern steering systems are just hydraulic or electronic power steering which boosts your input with a hydraulic or electric assist motor. You're still moving the mechanical linkage at any time you're steering, it's just that when the car is off the assist motor is disabled and because modern cars have massive tire contract patches, huge weights, and a lot more caster compared to yesteryear, it's damn near impossible to turn the wheels when the car is off and not moving. If you simply disabled the assist, started the car, and let it roll, you would find that it is only maybe 1.5 times harder to turn the wheel than a classic car with skinny tires and larger steering wheels and such. You're still fully controlling the direction the wheels are turned in said systems, the assist motor simply adds force.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#144

Post by lelanthran »

pwg wrote: post #20
aurareturn wrote: post #4

Around 10 years ago, I started looking into buying a new car. I couldn't believe the number of cars that switched to touch controls even 10 years ago. It boggles my mind just how car makers thought it was safer/easier to have touch in a car while one is driving. I refused to buy any car that replaced physical buttons with touch controls 10 years ago and I still have this rule today. Then again, it also boggles my min…

> It boggles my mind just how car makers thought it was safer/easier to have touch in a car while one is driving. It is likely that neither safety nor ease of use were part of the automaker's "thought process". It is much more likely that a first misguided "designer" created the first touch panel control and somehow sold it to "management" as being "futuristic" and/or "ahead of the competition". And once the first ca…

Well, yes, that's the main reason - it's cheaper.

There are other reasons of course - planned obsolesence is a big one. Why would they want cars to work after the primary owner is done with it? With software-everything they can lock the car to the first 3 or 4 owners, and then remotely kill it.

It doesn't even have to be actively disabled, just stop providing the replacement head unit as a part because "we don't have that software anymore".

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#145

Post by bombcar »

dotancohen wrote: post #132
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was surprisingly subtle when the power steering crapped out at 30mph It's not a problem at those speeds, having it crap out when turning slowly and sharply around fast traffic is much more likely to be deadly.

The opposite is true. Those old AMCs without power steering were just as easy to steer on the highway as any other car (once you managed to get up to speed) but the parking lot was a chore and parallel parking was neigh impossible.

Fancier power steering systems basically fully disengage at speed because you don’t need them; they’re for moving the wheels when you’re stopped or nearly so.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#146

Post by lelanthran »

thepasswordis wrote: post #100
cfr2023 wrote: post #86

The trend of touch screens replacing physical controls in domains where muscle memory is an advantage is an utter atrocity. No amount of interface versatility/flexibility can come close to touching the utility of not having to take your eyes off your subject. NONE.

Not to mention that on cars like Tesla, UI updates will change the location of these buttons . This drives me INSANE. The other one: some of the Tesla UIs feel like they were made with "minimalism" in mind. For instance the rear defroster vs the windshield defroster. I still, 3 years into my model Y, have no idea which is which, and every time I need to defrost the front windshield it's like a fight against the HVAC…

How is it possible to love a car that does things you hate when there are other cars at the same price that does everything the object of your love does, and doesn't do the things you hate?

It sounds like an irrational love for the car.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#147

Post by [deleted] »

magicalhippo wrote: post #70
spdustin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't feel the hydraulic feedback in the brake pedal (just the ABS buzzing), and gas pedals in many modern EFI vehicles feel more like foot-operated potentiometers than throttle linkages.

> gas pedals in many modern EFI vehicles feel more like foot-operated potentiometers than throttle linkages. In my EV it literally is a potentiometer. I really miss the feel of a physical throttle linkage on the snow and ice, I feel it's much more difficult to judge grip. Also, since it's just a pot, I don't know why there's not a speed mode for it, it to make it operate the cruise control speed set-point rather than…

[deleted]

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#148

Post by noirbot »

culopatin wrote: post #80
tristor wrote: post #66

This was the primary reason I bought my 2024 Mazda3, instead of alternatives in market. The Mazda was the only option that had physical controls for everything. In fact it disables the touch screen altogether when you exceed 10mph, forcing the use of physical controls. It works flawlessly with wireless carplay

The Mazda 3 is such a pretty car in and out. I wish there was an AWD turbo manual or a fully electric one. Either one will make me replace the Prius.

I've owned one for so long and it makes me so upset that Mazda doesn't have an EV yet. I just want my current car as an EV and I'd be happy.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#149

Post by croes »

adwf wrote: post #8

Good. My Tesla doesn't have a stalk for wiper control and it's just awful UX. The auto function is erratic (often triggers on a sunny day, doesn't pick the right level in the rain). Might be fine for sunny California infrequent use, but terrible for England. I'd much rather have easy full control at my fingertips than have to faff about with scroll wheels or the touch screen.

How about buying an other car?
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