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Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

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Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#171

Post by tombert »

al_borland wrote: post #159
tombert wrote: post #2

Even in the US, in tech firms, it's pretty common to have happy hours where everyone drinks a bit. I don't drink at all due to my sleep apnea, and don't even have caffeine after 1pm for the same reason, so I'm pretty much always in this kind of awkward position of sipping on a water throughout the night while coworkers get more and more inebriated. I don't think it's ever directly hurt my chances of promotion or anyt…

>I don't think it's ever directly hurt my chances of promotion or anything, but I do think it makes socializing harder. From what I’ve seen (in the US), people will frame in like it will hurt, because drinkers what to drink with other people, but competence wins out at the end of the day. Being around when decisions get made outside of the office can have an impact though, and it sounds like you’re still there for th…

Yeah, same, I would also hang out with smokers during their smoke break at a job, despite the fact that I have never really smoked [1]. At that job, most of the higher-ups smoked and I figured it might be useful to be part of the "under the table" discussions.

[1] Outside of half a cigarette when I turned 18 which I thought was pretty gross.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#172

Post by Gormo »

Cyph0n wrote: post #136
Gormo wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So alcohol has the added benefit of distinguishing competent leaders from incompetent ones?

Allowing your colleagues to ridicule you doesn’t make you a competent leader.

Being able to accept and adapt to criticism does.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#173

Post by tqi »

cangeroo wrote: post #127
tkgally wrote: post #112

The article engages in a bit too much overgeneralization for my taste: “Collective harmony and hierarchy are strongly idealised across East Asia,” “Americans are extremely direct,” etc. There’s a lot more social and individual diversity than statements like that suggest. One data point: I grew up in the U.S. but have lived in Japan for the past forty-one years. I freelanced for Japanese companies for my first two dec…

Would you have been satisfied if the statement said "... are often strongly idealised ..."? Aren't generalizations implicitly simplistic for the majority, while not necessarily true for the minority? Couldn't you say that you are generalizing too much about the author's generalizations? I found your anecdotes interesting, but I often wonder why people take offense at generalizations. East Asian countries are incredib…

My objection is less to the broad generalizations (though I'm curious what the line between a generalization and stereotype these days) and more that the conclusion the author comes to[1] is exceptionally reductive, and is completely lacking in evidence. Countries like Netherlands, Germany, and Denmark score high on direct negative feedback and confrontation AND have alcohol consumption rates that are similar or higher than Japan[2]. So what are we even talking about here?

[1] "If schools and firms explicitly encouraged more direct communication (as does happen in many international East Asian firms), maybe alcohol would be made redundant?"

[2] https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/alcohol-consump...

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#174

Post by parpfish »

gedy wrote: post #170
parpfish wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another part of it is that (imo) one of the biggest boons from group drinking is that it builds trust by giving people something to bond over — you’ve all imbibed to lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose, and the next day you see that you’re still accepted and part of the group. Teetotalers might be there physically, but they’ve opted out of the shared experience of making themselves vulnerable.

> you’ve all imbibed to lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose, and the next day you see that you’re still accepted and part of the group. In west coast tech companies with young people of both sexes, I absolutely refuse to drink due to not wanting to be accused of harassment or inappropriate behavior. I'm not a creep, but am older and not really attractive and am treated to a different standard. Sounds…

i don't know... if getting a bit of a buzz leads to you doing things that are interpreted as inappropriate, maybe there's some bigger underlying issues about understanding what's appropriate.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#175

Post by rvba »

ohyes wrote: post #74
rvba wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth gets downvoted, since unpopular. As if you never saw someone get drunk and spill their beans. Alcohol removes inhibitors (at least to some people) from "drunk calling the ex" to "telling the boss that their idea is stupid".

I hate my ex and have no problem telling my boss what’s what while sober so I guess I can drink my fill.

You make the mistake of assuming that everyone is the same as you and leads the same life as you.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#176

Post by creer »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #25
nox101 wrote: post #5

This presentation from the Long Now Foundation makes the proposition that drinking helps create society https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-... > Drawing on evidence from archaeology, history, cognitive neuroscience, psychopharmacology, social psychology, literature, and genetics, Slingerland shows that our taste for chemical intoxicants is not an evolutionary mistake, as we are so often told.…

My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and more incentive to unmask and resultant follow on effects. In the best case, this allows for social vulnerability that leads to trust and trust is the basis for society. Note that for some people, they are deep into traumatic fear stress that inebriation might ac…

But doesn't that - starting young - simply encourages intoxicants as a prerequisite to any opening up or social contact at all - rather than helping people communicate better and see each other better. That is, it's a crutch and NOT training or re-education.

Other communities strive to make communication safer and full of good examples which helps get over excessive shyness. Always seemed a better direction to me.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#177

Post by kzrdude »

iamacyborg wrote: post #62
kzrdude wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I avoid both coffee and refined sugar and then the list of alternatives really shrinks. Herbal tea is a good one of course, and in a bar one can often get pure apple juice.

Wait, why is sugar bad but apple juice okay?

I'll answer for me and not try to answer for people in general. People's metabolisms are different, different food works for them.

Empirical answer: different sensation basically the minute it enters my body, from refined sugar. I don't enjoy that feeling it and I could feel it in a blind test. My body and brain do not feel good on such sugars, and avoiding them entirely is a good way to remove the craving for them.

Scientific answer: fruit sugars are slower to take up than refined sugars, when delivered in as juice or in fruit.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#178

Post by gedy »

parpfish wrote: post #174
gedy wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you’ve all imbibed to lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose, and the next day you see that you’re still accepted and part of the group. In west coast tech companies with young people of both sexes, I absolutely refuse to drink due to not wanting to be accused of harassment or inappropriate behavior. I'm not a creep, but am older and not really attractive and am treated to a different standard. Sounds…

i don't know... if getting a bit of a buzz leads to you doing things that are interpreted as inappropriate, maybe there's some bigger underlying issues about understanding what's appropriate.

Well the OP mentioned "lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose", and I mention double standards depending on the person.

I've seen outings in Asia where there's lots of non-sexual touching, arm around shoulders etc, and yet that would be like insta-problem between sexes on the west coast. Getting buzzed means you aren't on high alert for this sort of thing, hence I'll nope out of putting myself in this situation.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#179

Post by eszed »

dr_kiszonka wrote: post #148

Dutch folks, what are you thoughts about the British — Dutch tables in this article?

American, not Dutch, but lived in the UK for nearly a decade, and can attest to the [general] accuracy of the first two columns of the table, down to the precise phrases given.

I lost one job, early in my stay, exactly because I hadn't yet figured out those social nuances. The "exit interview" there was rough: as directly as I've ever been spoken to in my life, to the point of verbal abuse. (Among other things mentioned: my habit of saying "sure", in place of "yes", was interpreted as tremendous rudeness.) Those people were mad as a box of frogs - many years later I worked, quite successfully, with a (British) person who'd likewise been employed by them, who concurred, and commisserated - but differing social expectations didn't help.

Looking back, I think I alienated myself, though not nearly to that extent, in several other work / social situations for some of the same reasons. I learned, though (having a British romantic partner to "translate" was helpful), and became quite comfortable navigating things there, to the extent that eventually moving back to the US came with some culture shock. (Seriously, why do Americans talk SO DAMN LOUD in public?!?)

Still, I'd prefer (even over the US defaults) to operate in cultural milieus as far to the left of all of those scales as possible.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#180

Post by AndrewKemendo »

creer wrote: post #176
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and more incentive to unmask and resultant follow on effects. In the best case, this allows for social vulnerability that leads to trust and trust is the basis for society. Note that for some people, they are deep into traumatic fear stress that inebriation might ac…

But doesn't that - starting young - simply encourages intoxicants as a prerequisite to any opening up or social contact at all - rather than helping people communicate better and see each other better. That is, it's a crutch and NOT training or re-education. Other communities strive to make communication safer and full of good examples which helps get over excessive shyness. Always seemed a better direction to me.

That’s precisely what it does.

Yes fully open, healthy attachment recognizing, empathy filled communities, are leaps and bounds healthier than ones with pathologically traumatized people coping with that with medication/intoxication.

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