Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money? • Hacker News Board

Re: Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money?

#101

Post by kamaal » Thu, May 10, 2012, 4:17 AM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #95

This kind of thing has been going on for a while. In Sir Arthur Clarke's autobiography "Astounding Days", he talks about holding a boring civil service job doing some sort of financial auditing (he scored well on the math test, so they thought this was just the place for him). It turned out that what he was doing only had to be accurate to within a couple of percent, so he started using his slide rule to crank out hi…

That is why its best to charge for your work and not time. In that case Sir Arthur Clarke could have made twice the money in a day.

Re: Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money?

#102

Post by kamaal » Thu, May 10, 2012, 4:24 AM UTC

infinite8s wrote: post #96

brucehart wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People do get very jealous even if it doesn't affect them. I automated something similar in one of my grad school courses (image processing). Each assignment required a report to be generated in a particular format that showed all of the results from each step in the assignment. It could be very time consuming because if you made any adjustments to your code based on incorrect results in later steps, you would often…

What's funny is that a student in a graduate computer science course couldn't grasp the benefits of automating the report generation.

It isn't funny, its something to seriously think about.

Most people would fail define the meaning of the work 'job'. According to many a job is

    a. Set of tasks that you need to execute 9 am to 5 pm.
    b. Every other person can only do what you can do and can only execute the same tasks.
    c. Any exception to a) and b) is evil.
    d. People in c) are generally heretics, non-team players and are gaming the system. And in overall disrupting market for everybody else.

The ideology is. If I can't, neither should you.

Re: Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money?

#103

Post by kamaal » Thu, May 10, 2012, 4:30 AM UTC

matwood wrote: post #9

georgieporgie wrote: post #6

Like others are saying, he should (gradually) reduce the output of his automation system to something more believable/less noticeable. Instead of going after the meager bonus, he should put his time into doing some kind of side work. Of course, that would be highly unethical and possibly grounds for firing, but I think his employer might angrily react with the latter if they found out what he was doing already. Incid…

It was decided that it was okay, so long as his assigned tasks were being completed. Of course, one wonders why he was ratted out if he was completing his tasks... :-) Jealousy. You never need to put a cover on a bucket full of crabs because anytime one crab tries to climb out the others will pull it back in. Sadly, people (even friends) often act in this same manner when someone they know is excelling in some way.

>>Sadly, people (even friends) often act in this same manner when someone they know is excelling in some way.

Do you know why this happens?

Its because when people of the same peer levels stay together, work together and spend a lot of time with each other. They begin to assume they all own the same money, live same lives, and have more or less than other.

Now suddenly when somebody discovers years later that one of them after going back home, used to silently work a big part of their night in garage building and selling stuff. And all that has made him relatively rich compared to him and everybody else, they feel cheated.

Its like a untold, silent agreement among people that none of them will do anything everybody else isn't doing. So that when somebody has a better chance of making it big, they generally have it from a source where all can benefit from. Else everybody remains where they are.

Re: Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money?

#104

Post by ohashi » Thu, May 10, 2012, 5:23 AM UTC

billybob wrote: post #35

ohashi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or he could simply be replacing himself with no reward. Oh, you've automated it? Thanks. Bye.

That's possible, but only if they're stupid. They'd be losing someone who can knows their business and could automate their next manual process. I'd suggest he say this: "hey boss, I think I can automate this process, increasing accuracy and productivity. Would you give me salary X if I can do it?" If the boss says "awesome, yes!", then he's got a better job. If the boss says no or is lukewarm, he could keep doing wh…

Let's do some math.

He's saying he gets 90% of the bonus pool and expects many other people only get 100-200.

So 5 others, 500-1000 for them, his take home would be 4500-9500 bonus.

If there are 10 others, 1000-2000 for them, his take home would be 9500-19500 bonus.

We're potentially talking 6 figure bonuses per year. Whose salary level do you think that would put him on? Do you think they will accept the data entry guy becoming as compensated? I doubt it would work politically and financially off some basic napkin math.

Re: Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money?

#105

Post by astrodust » Thu, May 10, 2012, 5:31 AM UTC

wheaties wrote: post #74

hkmurakami wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is an anecdote: A similar data-entry grunt creates a set of excel macros on his private time at home, then presents his work to his team at a meeting. He surely expected to be met with praise, for saving countless hours of mind-numbing work so that the man-hours could be used on more creative and challenging tasks. His high hopes for his fellow coworkers and his own future would be dashed though. The employee wa…

Happened in America too. Boss took the "hacker" to the side and said "Look, I'd have to fire my entire staff if the higher ups learned of this and then I'd be out of a job too." Ah, nothing like firing the guy who could save your company tons of money just in self-interest.

Always know the business objectives of your client before proposing a technical solution to anything.

Sometimes the business objectives are simple, obvious, like make the department more efficient or save the company money. Other times they're more sinister, like increase the head-count in order to earn your boss a higher salary, or to exert more influence over other departments by hijacking part of their process or rendering their people redundant while further solidifying your own base.

For more radical change you'll have to be on good terms with people much higher up in the organization that can save your ass when someone lower down tries to sabotage your work or push you out of your position in often misguided self-defense.

Perhaps the simple equilibrium position in many environments is to just quietly automate your tasks without rocking the boat in other ways.

Re: Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money?

#106

Post by SomeCallMeTim » Thu, May 10, 2012, 5:58 AM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #70

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

£2/hour more than a temp data-entry position isn't market compensation for an entry-level programming gig. Converting to US wages, temp workers often make $8-$12/hour -- the temp AGENCY may be making $20-$25 for that, but the worker only pulls in up to $24k/year. If they'd doubled his salary to ~$48k/year (assuming he previously was earning ~$12/hour) then that starts to be a decent wage for an entry-level programmer…

Nonsense. The guy accepted the $2 raise. He could have said, "No, I want $xx an hour," or "I'll sell you the script for $xxxxx," but he didn't.

>The guy accepted the $2 raise.

Taking advantage of naivete doesn't excuse them from being scumbags.

You can worship scumbag employment practices if you like, or claim that it's his "fault" somehow for not understanding the value of what he was doing. I prefer to reward people at least SOMEWHAT proportional to their contribution, as opposed to proportional to their business acumen.

In your world, the 1% get richer, the rest get screwed, and the economy crashes like clockwork. Sounds like a bunch of scumbags in control to me.

In the world I'd like to move toward, everyone (but the 1%) would benefit from a more stable and sustainable economy, since the 99% (those who actually create) would be compensated much more, and would actually benefit from the crazy productivity gains we've experienced over the past 40 years, instead of it going to the talentless 1% who happen to be holding all of the cash rightfully earned by the 99%. And the frustrating this is that they believe they deserve it. [1]

More details as to how this could be true? Too many to relate them all in a comment. If you care, or if you want to argue with my conclusion, watch this (warning: Long video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-KqeU8nzn4

It's like Atlas Shrugged, only without the "Be a huge asshole to everyone" part at the end of every sentence. [2] ------- [1] http://www.salon.com/2012/05/07/americas_idiot_rich/

[2] (in the rollover) http://xkcd.com/1049/

Re: Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money?

#107

Post by Confusion » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:20 AM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #98

3143 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was stopping the guy from skipping his boss and talking to the higher-ups himself? He could probably prove his boss right by taking his boss' job.

In most organizations, Management layers aren't layers. They are actually clubs that protect each others interests. This goes on until the system gather enough dust to cause it to collapse. Its futile to complain to a manager about another manager in general. Those people know each other, and they will never side with you. All that politics will only back fire on you.

Edit: I now realize you are talking about your experience in India, where of course things may be different. However, I would think that even there, 'managers' are a distinct subgroup from other human beings.

Original: That's an unnecessarily negative view.

Managers are people too and come in all the variations people come. Some of them care about whether the company does well, just like people whose title doesn't contain the word 'manager'. Their relation with other managers is exactly like the relation of your manager with you. That someones title includes the word 'manager' doesn't mean they suddenly like all other people whose title includes the word 'manager' and it doesn't mean he suddenly considers them equals. Being a 'manager' is not a binary thing. Team leaders are managers, even when their title doesn't say so.

Re: Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money?

#108

Post by jlarocco » Thu, May 10, 2012, 7:49 AM UTC

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #106

jlarocco wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. The guy accepted the $2 raise. He could have said, "No, I want $xx an hour," or "I'll sell you the script for $xxxxx," but he didn't.

>The guy accepted the $2 raise. Taking advantage of naivete doesn't excuse them from being scumbags. You can worship scumbag employment practices if you like, or claim that it's his "fault" somehow for not understanding the value of what he was doing. I prefer to reward people at least SOMEWHAT proportional to their contribution, as opposed to proportional to their business acumen. In your world, the 1% get richer, t…

The guy didn't care enough to ask for more than $2, why should I care on his behalf?

The problem I have with your rant is that you're implicitly segregating the population into two groups, one which knows better and one which needs the other group to take care of it. Of course you're placing yourself in the group that knows better...

I have enough work taking care of myself. If saying, "That guy can look out for himself also" makes me an "asshole" or a "scumbag" then so be it.

Re: Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money?

#109

Post by christiangenco » Thu, May 10, 2012, 10:48 AM UTC

qq66 wrote: post #23

Link to my comment on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/tenoq/reddit_my_f...

Hah, I remember reading your comment and thinking "wow, this guy sounds like he has initiative. I wonder why he's on reddit instead of HN..."

Re: Redditor: Am I a scumbag for automating my manual work and making more money?

#110

Post by noahc » Thu, May 10, 2012, 5:00 PM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #107

kamaal wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most organizations, Management layers aren't layers. They are actually clubs that protect each others interests. This goes on until the system gather enough dust to cause it to collapse. Its futile to complain to a manager about another manager in general. Those people know each other, and they will never side with you. All that politics will only back fire on you.

Edit: I now realize you are talking about your experience in India, where of course things may be different. However, I would think that even there, 'managers' are a distinct subgroup from other human beings. Original: That's an unnecessarily negative view. Managers are people too and come in all the variations people come. Some of them care about whether the company does well, just like people whose title doesn't co…

I know of an organization where if you wanted to purchase say $50,000 worth of new computers, HR (yes, human resources) had the power to make that purchase very difficult.

It wasn't because HR actually had any say in the matter, but instead the head of HR actually sat in on meetings with the CEO and the rest of VPs on a very regular basis.

Now in this case and in this company, they would not have blocked innovation like this. However, had they had different attitudes automation could have easily been blocked.

It's not so much about the manager title, as it is that the graph doesn't look like a bunch of layers that you can just skip one. There are multiple inputs that can can come from people above, below, and beside and that is what makes it a club of people, who generally will protect others in the club.