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Punk is dead and so are we

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Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#101

Post by u32480932048 »

roflyear wrote: post #17
5fvu75cji75d wrote: post #12

[flagged]

Partly, I guess in effect at least, but I would reject people are embracing lgbt rights because it is "cool" on the whole. It's more like, would you say women's lib was this type of fad? Or black rights? Etc.

It has absolutely become fashionable in the past few years, as evidenced by things the author (or maybe Hunter Thompson) wrote about, like having their own section in Target and ostensibly having support from Lockheed Martin (and every other company that wants to sell more products each June).

The risk of yesterday is greatly diminished; "being LGBT++++" is now mostly a process of buying the right pronoun pins from Amazon or Etsy before swinging by Target for an unironed pride flag before the Bank of America-sponsored "protest" march.

The gay and lesbian community that literally fought for basic rights is now being pushed out by a demographic that thinks anything but their idea of straight, vanilla missionary for the purpose of reproduction deserves a new gender. Gay men are basically straight men these days, especially among white kids who can afford to take university degrees that don't translate to jobs and would never be caught dead in a place resembling a 2005 gay bar. It's borderline cultural appropriation.

Most of the fighting occurred well before most of today's fashionable TIAQW@(#)SDFKLSJDF+ were born:

  - DSM removed homosexuality as a mental disorder in 1973; WHO in 1990.

  - The rainbow flag first flew in 1978.

  - The lessons of the hyper-aggressive response to the AIDS epidemic have all but been forgotten among the "blue hair & pronoouns" crowd.

  - Netherlands legalized same-sex marriage in 2000.

  - Lawrence v. Texas was 2003. Obergefell vs. Hodges was 2015 (nearly a decade ago).
Nah, they're not doing it because the cops shut down the one bar they could hang out at and be themselves, or because the government and half the country is conspiring to keep them and their one true love apart. Everything I've seen points to a combination of attention-seeking and shoehorning their mediocre white suburban existences into the Oppression Pyramid, because that's the only way to signal that they're not Evil Colonizers. It's sad.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#102

Post by watwut »

ericmcer wrote: post #29
Gimpei wrote: post #9

I don’t understand how you can devote so many words to the staying power of “capitalism” and not once give any concrete sense of what the economics of an alternative would look like and how you would make it work. The degree to which people microanalyze culture seems bonkers to me. If you don’t like our current economic system, then it’s kind of on you to come up with a viable alternative using empirical evidence. Ni…

The bit about Cobain's suicide felt like it was probing around something important but blaming it on Capitalism felt a bit off. Cobain would have experienced something similar at any period in history, that is what happens to talented people who rise from the masses. If anything capitalism gave him way more freedom to use his talent how he wanted than any other system would have. I am not an expert on Nirvana but I w…

Afaik he had psychiatric issues that made suicide more likely ... and drug dependence that also made it more likely. He did not even needed to be talented one to rise from the masses, people like him commit suicides more then general population simply out of own suffering. He had bipolar disorder, depression and ADHD.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#103

Post by dfxm12 »

pjmorris wrote: post #5
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #2

I think the author misattributed who the modern era punks would be. At least based on the described framework of what punk counter-culture was about and what it was countering. Given how much of the mainstream is organized around overwrought advertising, influencering, guruing, and being terminally online... it seems like the modern punks would be the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private, and…

If an old punk ethic was 'Do It Yourself' (DIY), maybe the modern punk equivalent would be 'Do It Offline' (DIO.)

Online or offline has nothing to with doing it yourself or not. Social media, websites, etc. makes organizing events, people, projects incredibly easier and more inclusive.

Punk isn't sitting over a xerox machine for a few hours printing flyers. It is actually putting a (music, performance art, benefit, whatever) event together at an all ages venue in a town where live nation owns all the venues and keeps shows 21+ so they can make money on booze. Doing stuff yourself is easier with the Internet.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#104

Post by mattgreenrocks »

lenerdenator wrote: post #47
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, metal is just another tent underneath the larger tent of rock. It has a defined place to be slotted in.

True, though it's subversive in its current form because there's just not much commercial success to be had from it. The kid who's into metal is the weirdo (I should know; I was that weirdo) and the weird are a naturally-limited market. You have to be in it for the love of the game.

Yep. I’m the middle-aged guy at the small prog metal shows dressed like a preppie nerd. I fit right in despite having zero outward trappings of the subculture (except nerdiness). Love that everyone there chose to be there. Also think metal concerts are too damn loud these days. :)

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#105

Post by zozbot234 »

watwut wrote: post #95
DontchaKnowit wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, todays true counterculture is conservative religious communities. There is nother more counter to the cultural moment then being a traditionally moral, upright citizen who doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world (not neccessarily economically, just mean someone who contributes more than they take : fi…

> There is nother more counter to the cultural moment then being a traditionally moral, upright citizen who doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world (not neccessarily economically, just mean someone who contributes more than they take : financially, emotionally, etc) The drug use is going down, alcoholism is going do…

That's because the drugs and sex are getting replaced across modern culture by p0rn and video games. It's not a sign of spiritual growth, the young people of today's mainstream West are still mired in pointless craving and desire. Conservative religious communities offer a way out of that predicament.

BTW the "conservative" part is not, strictly speaking, required but if you object to that I don't think you would like the "e/acc" variety of spirituality either. This is powerful stuff, and it makes 100% sense to have some "traditional" safeguards within it.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#106

Post by harimau777 »

steve918 wrote: post #18
5fvu75cji75d wrote: post #12

[flagged]

No, it's mainstream pop culture. As the author alludes it's trendy even for straight people to emulate gay culture.

I think it's more complicated than that, at least in America.

IMHO part of the issue is that America isn't a single culture. There's a big difference between the acceptance of LGBTQ culture between rural vs. urban, coastal vs. south, and pop culture vs. work culture.

There's also a major backlash against LGBTQ culture. E.g. I don't think that you can say that it is fully mainstream culture as long as we have the various Don't Say Gay laws and bans on gender affirming care.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#107

Post by dfxm12 »

DontchaKnowit wrote: post #55
mchinen wrote: post #24

There is a sort of nihilism that emerges when you look deeper at counterculture and it's conformity. Neo recognizing with horror the other neos is a great example. (In that case it only worked out for him because of hollywood's love of love - because he loved trinity so much he was really different from the rest.) I've often wondered how the leaders of the hippie, punk, and more modern movements would compare to clas…

In my opinion, todays true counterculture is conservative religious communities. There is nother more counter to the cultural moment then being a traditionally moral, upright citizen who doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world (not neccessarily economically, just mean someone who contributes more than they take : fi…

On the contrary, when you look at who holds power in the US, it is conservative religious people. From actual lawmakers to the media. They get to set the culture.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#108

Post by s1artibartfast »

yunwal wrote: post #94
mchinen wrote: post #24

There is a sort of nihilism that emerges when you look deeper at counterculture and it's conformity. Neo recognizing with horror the other neos is a great example. (In that case it only worked out for him because of hollywood's love of love - because he loved trinity so much he was really different from the rest.) I've often wondered how the leaders of the hippie, punk, and more modern movements would compare to clas…

My take is that “counterculture” is the wrong thing to look for when talking about changing the system. What’s actually going to do that is an entire generation that basically has decided to not try at their jobs and careers. Previous generations had a substantial number of people who thought that either their jobs could be their passions, or at the very least that doing well at their jobs could lead to a better life…

I think that is a very interesting perspective, but think it will not lead to real or positive change.

In my opinion (dont take this personally), I think it is a victim mentality, that if someone self sabotages enough, someone else will fix things or improve their situation.

I think a closer model of reality is that most people are disposable. I dont think that people becoming more disposable less important increases leverage.

A lot of historic change has come from organized striking, but only when the strikers have coherent demands and productivity to leverage.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#109

Post by friend_and_foe »

bee_rider wrote: post #86

It is funny to note that “Punk is Dead” came out in 1977, but all the action in the article WRT punk is happening in the 90’s and beyond. The author acknowledges this in a way, though: > the only visible instantiation of a subcultural franchise putting on against-the-grain airs similar to those of the punks and goths of the 1990s (who had all been thoroughly domesticated by that point)[…] Anyway, I’m not sure who the…

Is it possible your affinity to the blue hair and pronouns subculture prevents you from seriously considering the author's analysis of it?

To a gay man or transvestite (as they often called themselves, nothing derogatory meant by it) of yore, surely that movement represented freedom from repression. Today, when bigotry towards homosexuals is socially taboo, what does it mean to the allies, warriors and fluid genders? To the stereotypical tumblrites creating new gender symbols and ever increasingly colorful flags in Photoshop? To me it looks exactly like what the author says: mainstream, corporate captured product marketing, in group signalling, an aesthetic subculture feigning angst and struggle.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#110

Post by api »

poszlem wrote: post #99
api wrote: post #63

There are plenty of alternatives to capitalism discussed all over the place. I see them every day. What there aren't are alternatives that are both better and achievable in the real world. Fascism, traditionalism, neo-monarchism, authoritarian forms of socialism, and theocracy are all very real and have both adherents at home and entire societies abroad that attempt to live by their rules. Unfortunately all of them y…

I believe we are on the verge of witnessing an unprecedented challenge to Western capitalism, emanating from China. It's becoming increasingly clear that the West is facing difficulties. The capitalist model, particularly in its current form, is failing to deliver. There's also a notable lack of enthusiasm for it in the global south. The Chinese model appears to promise greater, superior, and swifter results, with th…

Maybe, but this very much remains to be seen.

There's an equally plausible narrative that China is coasting on the momentum of its liberalization, and that Xi Xinpeng's clampdown is slowly but surely strangling it. That combined with China's impending demographic cliff (self-inflicted via authoritarian one child policies) could lead China to start fading fairly soon.

We'll see.

In any case I don't think the Chinese model is that different from Western capitalism. At the street level it's fairly similar including hustle culture, long hours, and plenty of cultural commodification. Seems more like a variation on the theme than an alternative.

The most obvious area where they "deliver" is competent public works, which is something we seem to have forgotten how to do.

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