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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#551

Post by acdha »

kube-system wrote: post #391
acdha wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, which is why I suggested a combination of measures to change that. An active per-device transaction would make it clear when a dealer’s access is being misused, and if it affects their business viability it would turn out that they could do a better job of controlling access. Hundreds of thousands of people work at banks, too, and many of them do not care about their employers but thefts from customer accounts a…

What would that look like in reality? Expecting dealerships to have the same physical security, procedures, and security vetting of a bank? There's already a shortage of workers in these roles, now we want the guys busting their knuckles on vehicle repairs to have a good credit score and good background check and perform elaborate opening and closing procedures with a buddy system? Storing tools in a vault? I really…

Simply requiring the dealers to take seriously ownership validation and track which workers used the reset system (no shared logins, etc.) would do most of it.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#552

Post by vkou »

immibis wrote: post #437
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know about the endemic of illiteracy in the US right now? More likely than not that child can't even read above a 2nd grade level. We could have real rehabilitation centers focused on educating the kids, treating them like human beings with respect, and show them how to live life well. Or we could put them in kid-jail and be put at a higher risk for all sorts of violence and abuse just to punish them. As long…

Even better, we could focus on educating them properly the first time!

That's easy. We just need to halve class sizes, fire half of the administration, double the pay for teachers in the worst districts, and raise the floor of the child social safety net to the point that even having complete fuckups for parents won't ruin your life.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#553

Post by pdonis »

stevofolife wrote: post #465
pdonis wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why the UN exists and the LON before it Um, you do realize that the League of Nations was a failure ? And that the UN, although at least it still exists (unlike the LON, which only lasted a decade or so), has not accomplished anything meaningful in terms of enforcing actual norms of behavior?

That's a wild statement to make about UN's unproductiveness in the history of its existence. I'd like some evidence please.

> I'd like some evidence please.

Um, the state of the world today? Read the preamble of the UN charter and ask yourself how well the UN has actually done at moving the world in the direction of those things.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#554

Post by HPsquared »

eli wrote: post #439
whimsicalism wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no developed country in the world that does not have legal and LE discretion. It’s only the fact that the US has a common law system that this case even got far at all. Go find me somewhere where you can successfully sue the government for not arresting someone. And again: this is a case about Canada - so this has literally 0 relevance to the topic at hand.

Discretion about whether or not to protect a citizen?

Are there any examples where that is the case?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#555

Post by LoganDark »

sokoloff wrote: post #100
LoganDark wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know what the recurrence rate is for U.S. prisons? It's around 44%. 44% of people released from prison, within a year, go on to commit another crime severe enough to end them up back in prison

That doesn't seem overly surprising. Just as the people who acted in 2010 in a fashion that did not land them in prison probably acted in a way in 2015 that also did not land them in prison, it's not shocking that people who acted in 2010 in a way that landed the in prison might also act in 2015 in a way that lands them in prison. I don't think that being in prison from 2011 to 2014 caused them to act that way in 201…

> I don't think that being in prison from 2011 to 2014 caused them to act that way in 2015.

You would be surprised. There's no concrete evidence pointing to this, but some suspects, when asked, will say that they did it because they have nothing left to lose.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#556

Post by bee_rider »

tsimionescu wrote: post #495
bee_rider wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The melting pot is a way of integrating people into our country. It has been criticized as being too homogenizing; and now I think (for the better) most people see it as a nice lumpy stew. We shouldn’t ask people to give up all their traditions or change completely to become American, it is a give and take communication process that we both benefit from. WRT toilets, I think it has been shown that squatting actually…

> WRT toilets, I think it has been shown that squatting actually reduces the strain when using the toilet; I think those signs reflect the fact that we are integrating new toilet information. They are part of the natural back-and-forth pushing process. Hopefully we’ll converge on a toilet that is lower to the ground but doesn’t have accessibility issues. Squatting toilets are fine, maybe they are even better. But the…

What I wanted to highlight is that this confusion, people coming to the toilet with different assumptions and misusing it as a result, is part of the process of improving by integrating additional information. Sure, they are being misused, but the way they are being misused gives us a chance to reflect on how they could be better.

If we want to be obnoxiously neutral, haha, we could just say there’s a mismatch between the design and the user expectations. Maybe we could look at retrofitting some of these toilets with a retractable foot platform, or something along those lines, instead of a sign.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#557

Post by philwelch »

rjmunro wrote: post #235
philwelch wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s actually not true anymore. El Salvador has the most prisoners per capita now. They also have a lower murder rate than the US. The lowest murder rate in the entire Western Hemisphere, actually. Previously they had the highest murder rate in the world. Mass incarceration works. It doesn’t work in the US because we didn’t do enough of it.

Download the CSVs of https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/homicide-rate-unodc and https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/prison-population-rate Plot them on a graph. There is basically no correlation.

Different countries have different base rates of criminality. Japan, for instance, has very few criminals but incarcerates almost all of them. The US has more criminals so the US incarcerates more people, but it probably doesn't incarcerate the same proportion of criminals that Japan does.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#558

Post by [deleted] »

acdha wrote: post #551
kube-system wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would that look like in reality? Expecting dealerships to have the same physical security, procedures, and security vetting of a bank? There's already a shortage of workers in these roles, now we want the guys busting their knuckles on vehicle repairs to have a good credit score and good background check and perform elaborate opening and closing procedures with a buddy system? Storing tools in a vault? I really…

Simply requiring the dealers to take seriously ownership validation and track which workers used the reset system (no shared logins, etc.) would do most of it.

[deleted]

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#559

Post by sokoloff »

jonhohle wrote: post #544
ceejayoz wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the article; that regulating car manufacturers who make insecure cars is the correct approach. This specific case illustrates the effectiveness of the approach.

I read this view as: it’s fine to steal a car without an immobilizer. That’s an insane take (and why we can’t have nice things). Meanwhile other modern countries (albeit with much stricter law enforcement and a more unified value system) can operate with 0.1% of the equivalent crime and that’s not what we aspire to. Instead we want to blame the manufacturer who must have certainly enticed antisocial, destructive beha…

It's worth noting that Hyundai and Kia actually ship different anti-theft technology in some of these other modern countries, because regulations in those other modern countries require it. The fact that the US doesn't require it (this article is about Canada, but other subthreads are talking about those manufacturers specifically).

It seems entirely reasonable to take the article's point of view which is "don't ban FlipperZero just because it can be used to facilitate car theft [among 1000 other uses], but rather regulate cars so that they become harder to steal".

Further, I realize you didn't put a ton of thought into the specific 0.1% figure, but I seriously doubt that other modern countries are 1000x better on equivalent crime measures than either the US or Canada.

Even New Zealand, with quite strict gun laws, has a firearm death rate that is a little over 1/12th that of the US's: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-death...

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#560

Post by seanmcdirmid »

cyanydeez wrote: post #409
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if someone is 12 or 13, they're far more receptive to change than a CEO whose spent their life stealing wages. Yes! Which makes our lack of action even more tragic.

when we consider wage theft as a significant driver of poverty, punishment for the 13 year old is more useless than anything.

So you would condemn the 13 year old to a (likely short) life of hardship because wage theft is a more important problem?
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