Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero • Hacker News Board

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#401

Post by mindslight » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 5:35 PM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #298

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…

I'd say OP actually talked about two different things. The abstract description in the first paragraph is the rule of law (which I agree happened a long time ago, and is a good thing for a democratic society), but the concrete gripe in the later paragraphs is a different thing.

Rather, it's something like the difference between laws applying to individuals who may violate normative behavior ("it's illegal to steal"), or whether laws (in this context aka "regulations") apply continuously to above board businesses, with the goal of a priori preventing individual violations of normative behavior ("it's illegal to make a car that can be easily stolen").

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#402

Post by 14 » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 5:35 PM UTC

swozey wrote: post #332

14 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be trivial to hard wire a kill switch to your fuel pump and have it hidden somewhere so no matter what thief’s can’t drive off with your car. Much cheaper and more secure as cars can be stolen from parking garages.

Put a kill switch in it they tow it. Put a Club in it they tow it and cut off the steering wheel. Put GPS on it they throw it in a faraday cage paintshop/train. Put a Dronemobile system in it the Police just won't investigate/track it down. Really just have to not keep property outside anymore. I used to do the "It's not a big deal, i have full coverage" but had a car stolen and they (insurance) treat you like absolu…

Lock it in your garage and now they break into your house and hold a gun to your head….ya maybe they tow it but not likely as they want to do this discreetly but at the end of the day of course if they were determined they could take anything. My point is a kill switch would stop 99% of theft.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#403

Post by notatoad » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 5:35 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #64

sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

> Which the government is not obligated to do in the US. Just a talking point - and the US has one of the most extensive criminal justice apparatuses of any country. This article is about Canada - which has largely failed to control its organized crime+ports situation, unlike authorities in the US where most organized crime is organized from abroad and so difficult to disrupt but also less effective.

>This article is about Canada

but really it applies to the US as well, since the US has a similar rate of car theft (~280 thefts per 100k people, vs ~220 in canada, if you trust statista) and is also working to ban the flipper zero.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#404

Post by Thrymr » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 5:35 PM UTC

lainga wrote: post #347

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…

And now we come to the unfortunate fact that there is no equivalent in English for the distinction between Recht and Gesetz , or droit and loi , both being subsumed under the term law . The former is an immanent thing, a "shared search after justice". The latter is temporal, it is written down and itemised in Strafgesetzbuche and Codes Civiles , and is very appealing to HNers because we can read "common standard for…

English common law is largely not codified but the result of practices and precedent, and is still part of the legal system in most English-speaking countries, as opposed to continental-style civil codes that you mention which are more explicit. I do think that distinction exists in the English-speaking world.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#405

Post by Chris2048 » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 5:35 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #66

newsclues wrote: post #41

Canada needs to reinstate the national port police, and actually do their job in policing. Policy changes for cars or technology will not solve the lawlessness in Canada.

Agreed. I am not sure why Canada has had so much comparative trouble with organized crime

Too busy jailing and freezing the bank accounts of political enemies.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#406

Post by Chris2048 » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 5:35 PM UTC

h2odragon wrote: post #2

Or, enforce existing laws against theft ... "Ban insecure vehicles" is chasing the technology of locks; there's always another circumvention.

You can always smash the window, but that can draw negative attention.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#407

Post by graemep » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 5:37 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

You need both. You need the majority of people to do the right thing, and the law to deal with the minority.

The problem is that you do need to take precautions against the minority for some things - especially high reward (e.g. car theft) or high harm (assaults) in public spaces.

I think there is a another problem here. How can car companies sell insecure vehicles? Why do people buy cars from companies with a track record or bad security, why do they buy cars with high risk systems (e.g. keyless entry), and why are those selling insecure cars not being made to compensate their customers? The problem should be fixed by the markets or the normal operation of the courts.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#408

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 5:38 PM UTC

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #292

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. We had police catch 12 and 13 year olds (Kia Boyz) this weekend in a car with guns, and they are out already. They will get some restorative justice, but no real correction in behavior and I’m sure they will do it again. Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need s…

> Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need some compassion. There's an entire field of study covering how ineffective punitive justice is. Unless the perpetrator at hand is literally an irredeemable monster, locking them away in a box until they're later released with even more stigmas, even further behind the curve, and without the ability to e…

To be honest, there's also entire fields of study of how God makes everything in the world happen, so I doubt I'm much convinced by how many fields of studies there are. People have been able to bullshit each other over obvious things for eons. The existence of such fields means nothing.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#409

Post by cyanydeez » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 5:38 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #345

cyanydeez wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if someone is 12 or 13, they're far more receptive to change than a CEO whose spent their life stealing wages. one gets constantly brought up while the other is celebrated.

> if someone is 12 or 13, they're far more receptive to change than a CEO whose spent their life stealing wages. Yes! Which makes our lack of action even more tragic.

when we consider wage theft as a significant driver of poverty, punishment for the 13 year old is more useless than anything.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#410

Post by pixl97 » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 5:39 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #232

whimsicalism wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great - and how is that different from the law again?

Because the law is only punishing people that break the rules, not teaching them what ethical behavior is in the first place. It’s fundamentally a reactive process. In other words, you want people that don’t steal cars because they feel bad about it. You don’t want them to not steal cars because they’re afraid of the law.

>because they feel bad about it.

You do realize that some portion of the population can't feel bad about it right?

Needless to say, I pray to whatever deities that you do not work in computer security. You would be laughed out of existence by saying "Just tell the world to be nice" rather than say, not write SQL injections.

How about "Tell all the viruses to be nice and not infect cells".