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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#431

Post by newsclues »

acdha wrote: post #278
newsclues wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get exported overseas and any technology lock or security device gets ripped out and replaced. This isn’t about extracting encrypted data, but bypassing systems to start a car.

Yes, because the current design is lax. Now think about what happens if the engine computer won’t start with a bad signature or the entertainment system won’t work. How would that affect the overseas market?

The part that requires a signature will be taken out and replaced. Infotainment systems will get gutted and replaced with aftermarket ones.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#432

Post by wkat4242 »

Obviously, this is the answer. Make the manufacturers simply recall their cars and fix this easy exploit.

However it won't happen because politicians are in the pocket of big industry, and also banning a flipper zero makes them look good with almost no political capital expended (a quick win).

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#433

Post by immibis »

freedomben wrote: post #364
autoexec wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. In the US we lock more of our citizens behind bars than any other nation on Earth. Conviction for even a minor offense can make it extremely difficult to get employment or housing. People rarely get a clean slate after serving their time and even an arrest record without a conviction can haunt you. Nearly all other developed countri…

I fully agree with you regarding situations where people get put into the system. Our justice system in practice, if not philosophy is very much based on punishment rather than rehabilitation. In my personal opinion this is medieval and really needs to change. However, what GP I suspect is seeing and what many others have seen as well, is a recognition that the system is broken, and thus a reluctance on a part of aut…

To reiterate what you just wrote in the second paragraph: Punishment ruins lives, so people vote against ruining each other's lives, so a group of people (who are but you did not refer to as fascists) who are disappointed with the amount of lives not being ruined will increase the level of punishment even further to maintain or exceed life-ruining equilibrium?

It may be true or false, that I don't know, but the blame for it should lie squarely on the people who seek to increase life-ruining instead of the people who seek to decrease it.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#435

Post by gchamonlive »

engineer_22 wrote: post #382
gchamonlive wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that is not my main point in the comment you responded to

If I understand now, your argument is that flipper zero is not a social danger, while firearms are, am I correct?

If by social danger you mean I would be really impressed if you managed to throw a flipper zero into someone and kill him, then yes that is the gist. It's a matter of degree.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#436

Post by janalsncm »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

We can ban theft, ban/regulate theft facilitation devices, and also mandate that cars have some minimum level of security.

> I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle

If there was a spree of that happening, you can bet your next paycheck there would be laws about it. Laws aren’t about a philosophical distinction between flipper zeros and tow trucks, they’re practical tools for law enforcement.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#437

Post by immibis »

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #422
ryandrake wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is stealing cars at 12 or 13 years old, they're already well on their way down the path towards irredeemability. Society has to do something or they will turn into a lifelong criminal. A multi-year prison sentence is probably not going to help them, but counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. You have to do something besides "catch and release" which has been t…

Do you know about the endemic of illiteracy in the US right now? More likely than not that child can't even read above a 2nd grade level. We could have real rehabilitation centers focused on educating the kids, treating them like human beings with respect, and show them how to live life well. Or we could put them in kid-jail and be put at a higher risk for all sorts of violence and abuse just to punish them. As long…

Even better, we could focus on educating them properly the first time!

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#438

Post by newsclues »

caskstrength wrote: post #214
newsclues wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is done by organized crime with engineers on staff. Sure it’s drug addicts stealing cars but the people shipping them are smart and have access to capital.

I agree, but that brings us back to my original question: why can't same smart organized crime people unlock my smartphone then? Because Apple/Google give a damn about security and car manufacturers do not.

Economic incentives.

People will buy a $150,000 SUV for 50k and they can still make money. Phones have less incentive and Apple is going to be better at bricking the phones than carmakers will.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#439

Post by eli »

whimsicalism wrote: post #134
bdw5204 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the US Supreme Court, the police have no duty to protect citizens[0], even if they obtain a court-issued protective order. Cars are insecure on purpose because people accidentally lock their keys inside all the time so locksmiths need to be able to get into them. Likewise, locks on homes are insecure on purpose because people lock themselves out. The entire system of locks is based on the assumption that…

There is no developed country in the world that does not have legal and LE discretion. It’s only the fact that the US has a common law system that this case even got far at all. Go find me somewhere where you can successfully sue the government for not arresting someone. And again: this is a case about Canada - so this has literally 0 relevance to the topic at hand.

Discretion about whether or not to protect a citizen?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#440

Post by newsclues »

rjmunro wrote: post #175
newsclues wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars are computers now. What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. No level of technology will stop this. But cutting off the profit motive by making it very hard to export cars will have a massive impact on these crimes, and for old and new cars.

> No level of technology will stop this. Why does no one steal Teslas?

Think about where these cars end up, it’s not near a service centre.
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