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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#481

Post by Chris2048 »

kube-system wrote: post #266
Chris2048 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same problem exist for car keys. The answer is, when a person "inevitably lose[s] it", they need to pay to get their electronics refit.

The result of that may be that losing a key is financially devastating enough that it totals many vehicles. And/or if the odometer and other local storage is affected, that may cause permanent title issues for the car. The number of people who lose their keys vastly dwarfs the number of people who are having their car stolen with a flipper zero.

Perhaps, or perhaps not.

It has to be hard enough it can't be done in the street (without getting attention), but maybe it could be easy enough to do in a garage.

But even if it is expensive, the result would be that either people with take more care, or they'll lose their car.

Maybe it's not a bad thing that people who can't manage a key are less likely to be on the roads - or that its more likely they lose access to their car then it ends up in the hands of criminals. A car can be a dangerous thing, even an inexpensive one.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#482

Post by Chris2048 »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #186
Chris2048 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but then you'd need a tow truck.. Doesn't seem a lot simpler, anyone could snap a pic of your registration plate. I think towing a vehicle does attract a fair amount of attention, especially if there is no obvious reason for it. Also, they don't need to steal the car - if they can freely open it can can just steal anything inside.

No idea where you are at but I wouldn't think twice about someone towing a car. If someone was hotwiring a neighbor's vehicle I think I'd definitely at least start videoing them as a deterrent.

If thieves started towing cars, presumably people would be more observant, esp where it isn't obvious why a car is being towed.

If it was in an urban environment, there might be cameras around anyway that could capture the reg plate.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#483

Post by whimsicalism »

notatoad wrote: post #403
whimsicalism wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which the government is not obligated to do in the US. Just a talking point - and the US has one of the most extensive criminal justice apparatuses of any country. This article is about Canada - which has largely failed to control its organized crime+ports situation, unlike authorities in the US where most organized crime is organized from abroad and so difficult to disrupt but also less effective.

>This article is about Canada but really it applies to the US as well, since the US has a similar rate of car theft (~280 thefts per 100k people, vs ~220 in canada, if you trust statista) and is also working to ban the flipper zero.

Canada has much more non-recovered car theft where (especially luxury) cars are stolen and shipped off.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#484

Post by tsimionescu »

graemep wrote: post #395
GenerocUsername wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a melting pot, the US takes in a lot of folks from countries that are not doing very well... so in a way, if we keep importing folks from cultures that failed without trying to integrate them to our culture, and instead celebrate their original culture, eventually our amalgam culture will fail just like theirs did. Its why we have signs that say to "sit, not stand on toilets". You dont think we would need to write…

Bad example. I believe squat toilets are actually better for you (less strain to use) so really there is a case to be made we (those who do not use them) should follow those who do.

This was not about squat toilets, but about people who squat on sit-down toilets, which is dangerous and dirty.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#485

Post by hot_gril »

mywittyname wrote: post #412
sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

> That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. Disagree. Depending on the approach taken, the theft can look like a legitimate owner getting into a car. Even the break the window and reprogram a key via ODBII port technique takes about a minute to complete. Plenty of people have posted videos of their cars being stolen (I'm part of several Camaro communities, which are big theft targets)…

Yeah, I broke into my own car recently using a coat hanger, nobody cared.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#486

Post by nonethewiser »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #270
whimsicalism wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean - an arrest, even if wrongful, is not the same as an assault. I don’t think I have the ability to judge what is a wrongful arrest simply from the video. This video does not really vindicate the people attacking the cops imo.

I'm going to stop responding because this thread is off topic, but this is exactly what a culture of lawlessness looks like. The police very clearly assaulted someone on camera, and you're bending over backwards to find a way to exculpate them. There's a reason the judge declined to set bail.

> I'm going to stop responding because this thread is off topic

We can't expect to solve the car crime problem by only beefing up car security. It also requires holding people accountable for their behavior.

> There's a reason the judge declined to set bail.

And the reason is there isn't the willpower to hold criminals accountable.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#487

Post by RandallBrown »

mywittyname wrote: post #412
sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

> That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. Disagree. Depending on the approach taken, the theft can look like a legitimate owner getting into a car. Even the break the window and reprogram a key via ODBII port technique takes about a minute to complete. Plenty of people have posted videos of their cars being stolen (I'm part of several Camaro communities, which are big theft targets)…

I've seen cars towed in less than 30 seconds from parallel parking spots.

Even if it took longer, it still looks more legitimate to bystanders than a broken window.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#488

Post by schaefer »

I have a younger brother that recently bought a Kia as his first car. It's been broken into 3 times in less than a of ownership year.

Kia sent him a cheep "Club style" steering wheel lock... -- From my perspective, getting stuck with this lemon will significantly compromise his quality of life and finances for years to come.

Where are our consumer protections? Kia should be on the hook for fixing the problem or buying back the vehicle at cost.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#489

Post by CalChris »

keiferski wrote: post #308
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…

That's an interesting thought, but I would say instead that I'm in favor of culture being the "first line of defense" and not the law. In other words, I can leave my door unlocked because I am a part of a culture where that sort of thing doesn't happen. Not because there is a law written down somewhere. This has functionally been my experience in a number of spaces, including private workspaces (i.e., you don't expec…

But you DO have a second line of defense even in your culture because that sort of thing DOES happen even in your culture only perhaps less often.

With respect to the Flipper Zero, I don't understand how culture solves this particular problem. I'm not sure I'd want to be in a culture that solved this particular problem a priori. I think I'd prefer to be in an imperfect Rule Of Law society that adapted albeit imperfectly to new problems as they appeared.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#490

Post by latexr »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pass laws to supposedly prevent that behavior from manifesting.

It seems to be a fairer assessment to say “when we see a concerning amount of them behaving in the worst way possible, we then pass laws to attempt to prevent that behavior from manifesting”.

> It's designing the playground so that kids can't get hurt, not teaching them how to play responsibly.

Which is a great philosophy in theory, as well as in practice like (so I’ve heard from multiple sources) in Japan you being able to comfortably leave your belongings unattended in public space. It would be great if everywhere were like that, but we have to work with the society we live in and changing behaviour on a mass scale is a gargantuan task.

> the "new method" results in a different kind of world than the previous one

You described an ideal, not a method. If you have specific suggestions on how to collectively educate people to act for the greater good in any given matter, I’m genuinely interested. We need some of that fast (e.g. regarding climate change).

I’m skeptical we can achieve those necessary urgent goals without any policies, but I’d welcome being wrong.

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